Wat Dhammakaya

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chownah
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Re: Former follower recalls his “riches to rags” story after being inducted to Dhammakaya sect

Postby chownah » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:15 am

samseva wrote:
chownah wrote:
ManEagle wrote:..........
............ I am in no way purporting to be an expert onThai mentality but all the same I am not surprised to hear about stories of Thai people being sucked into the Dhammakaya mentality of donate what you can in the promise of improving your life and paving your way to Buddhist heaven. This aspect of any religion makes me sick.

Donating to the temple what you can in the promise of improving your life and paving your way to buddhist heaven is to a great extent what thai buddhism is all about and from what I gather from hearing what other people say about other places in asia it is what asian buddhism is to a great extent. If this makes you sick don't just hang it onto dhammakaya.....hang it onto a large segment of thai society.
With over a million followers it is inevitable that a few will have a lack of proportion about how much to give....and in thailand that percentage will be larger than many westerners expect because giving to the temple is considered not only of religious benefit but of social benefit as well.
chownah

Trying to paint Thai society and pretty much the East as a whole in bad light regarding religion (and general personality) is being biased. For any country or religion, there is a whole spectrum of people who study and practice the religion which those people follow, and some which only practice their religion superficially or, more precisely, socially. Pretty much for all religions, the largest portion of followers are people who don't know much about the teachings in and of themselves and follow rituals and social practiced activities more than anything else.

So, it's not just a Thai thing. Just look at how Christianity—or more precisely the church and its followers—evolved over the past few millenniums, it's not that different. Giving money, going to heaven, bad priests, blind faith, ecclesial power, followers who don't even understand or study the teachings—not that different, no?

Since I am certainly not "Trying to paint Thai society and pretty much the East as a whole in bad light regarding religion (and general personality)" I guess you like my post and are just emphasizing the point I am making. Is that right? I agree with everything you are saying but that first sentence makes me think that you are disagreeing with my post and have misconstrued what I posted.
chownah

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samseva
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Re: Former follower recalls his “riches to rags” story after being inducted to Dhammakaya sect

Postby samseva » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:55 pm

chownah wrote:
samseva wrote:Trying to paint Thai society and pretty much the East as a whole in bad light regarding religion (and general personality) is being biased. For any country or religion, there is a whole spectrum of people who study and practice the religion which those people follow, and some which only practice their religion superficially or, more precisely, socially. Pretty much for all religions, the largest portion of followers are people who don't know much about the teachings in and of themselves and follow rituals and social practiced activities more than anything else.

So, it's not just a Thai thing. Just look at how Christianity—or more precisely the church and its followers—evolved over the past few millenniums, it's not that different. Giving money, going to heaven, bad priests, blind faith, ecclesial power, followers who don't even understand or study the teachings—not that different, no?

Since I am certainly not "Trying to paint Thai society and pretty much the East as a whole in bad light regarding religion (and general personality)" I guess you like my post and are just emphasizing the point I am making. Is that right? I agree with everything you are saying but that first sentence makes me think that you are disagreeing with my post and have misconstrued what I posted.
chownah

No, I don't think what you said correctly represents Thai people and Thailand. And I was saying that you were painting Thai society in a bad light because your post was in line with almost all of your other posts regarding Thailand, which are mostly on the more negative and critical side.

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mikenz66
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:15 pm

I took Chownah's post as simply presenting some aspect of practice in SE Asia that are quite prevalent. If more people had a better idea of the breadth of practices and attitudes that exist there, they might have a more balanced appreciation of what a living Buddhist culture is like.

As I've pointed out frequently elsewhere, looking just as some of the surface aspect practices of Asian people and assuming that there is no substance to be found it would be painting the societies in a bad light, but denying those practices exist is simply unrealistic.

Returning to the point of this thread. I'm not an apologist for Dhammakaya, and there do seem to be some serious problems with the organisation, but I think Chownah was trying to point out that singling out Dhammakaya supporters as being completely different from others is not accurate.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby Turmeric » Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:36 am

ManEagle wrote:I do wish they'd hurry up and get this Dhammajayo business sorted out soon. Just recently my wife has taken to chanting whenever she can. And she's got hold of some annoying YT video from Dhammakaya with chanting at twice the normal speed. Sounds like Pinkie & Perky chanting. It's driving me bloody mad! Apparently it's necessary to get as many chanting rounds in per hour because this is going to help their beloved abbot! (Or is it ex-abbot?). My mind boggles at some of the utter tosh they're being fed by the temple and its disciples.


Your wife is doing a good thing and you should try to avoid hurting her by making her lose faith. If you love her then you should encourage her to meditate more, go to the temple more, and chant more.

Anyways. For everyone here. Here is a cool preaching from Phramongkulthepmuni the founder of the Dhammakaya lineage

We are not stupid people who cannot tell the difference between what's right and what's wrong! Why should we tell lies in order to boost our self-aggrandizement in the eyes of others? They only accuse us because they don't know the Dhammakaya for themselves. They know neither the place where Dhammakaya exists, nor the meaning of the word itself! This ignorance can be the only reason why they are so misguided to complain about us who are forthright and sincere in teaching from our own true experience. When ignorant people who don't know the real doctrine of the Lord Buddha attack our meditation technique, they cannot upset the truth but will succeed only in undermining the faith of weak-minded people. The real Jewel of the Buddha's teaching is ever shining and only the wise can look upon it in true admiration. The results of the truth are derived entirely from the meditators own experience not from doctrinal study. At Wat paknam the monks in my care even when eating and sleeping do nothing in their lives but practice meditation. We talk together about what we have achieved and we are tireless in encouraging others to do good. We do not advertise ourselves in newspapers but our Fame relies solely on our good reputation but even in spite of the virtue of our Temple people still come to slander us, behavior that will ultimately only cause more trouble for themselves. We don't ask people to pay for the meditation teaching they receive at the temple. If we reach the truth and guide people in the right way, then in the end skill and meditation will triumph over slander. I am not upset by all this controversy because Dhammakaya is the truth of Buddhism. It is real. It will appear to all those who attain that level of consciousness. My conviction in the veracity of Buddhism is unshakable- Phramongkulthepmuni
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chownah
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Re: Former follower recalls his “riches to rags” story after being inducted to Dhammakaya sect

Postby chownah » Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:04 am

samseva wrote:
chownah wrote:
samseva wrote:Trying to paint Thai society and pretty much the East as a whole in bad light regarding religion (and general personality) is being biased. For any country or religion, there is a whole spectrum of people who study and practice the religion which those people follow, and some which only practice their religion superficially or, more precisely, socially. Pretty much for all religions, the largest portion of followers are people who don't know much about the teachings in and of themselves and follow rituals and social practiced activities more than anything else.

So, it's not just a Thai thing. Just look at how Christianity—or more precisely the church and its followers—evolved over the past few millenniums, it's not that different. Giving money, going to heaven, bad priests, blind faith, ecclesial power, followers who don't even understand or study the teachings—not that different, no?

Since I am certainly not "Trying to paint Thai society and pretty much the East as a whole in bad light regarding religion (and general personality)" I guess you like my post and are just emphasizing the point I am making. Is that right? I agree with everything you are saying but that first sentence makes me think that you are disagreeing with my post and have misconstrued what I posted.
chownah

No, I don't think what you said correctly represents Thai people and Thailand. And I was saying that you were painting Thai society in a bad light because your post was in line with almost all of your other posts regarding Thailand, which are mostly on the more negative and critical side.

I have lived in thailand for over ten years and have a reasonably good idea about the concept of "tam boon" which means "make merit". Are you familiar with the idea of making merit? It seems that you are of the view that making merit is not a significant part of thai buddhism...is that right?
Also, it seems that you are of the view that making merit is a bad thing....is that right? I claim that thai people do alot of merit making and that it is an important part of their buddhist experience but please note that I have not said anything to indicate that I think it is a bad thing. I don't judge other people's views on buddhism (usually) and it is you that seems to be making the value judgement....but I very well may be wrong and have misconstued your views on this.
Today my wife's cousin will enter the monkhood probably for a week or two. He is doing this because his life hasn't been going well and he hopes that being a monk for awhile will improve his circumstances.
Also today my wife and her siblings will host a gathering to make merit for their recently departed mother. The purpose is to make merit for her.....and also doing good things for one's mother is also seen as a way to make merit for oneself.
Making merit is a very popular thing to do in thailand it seems.

chownah

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samseva
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby samseva » Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:46 pm

mikenz66 wrote:I took Chownah's post as simply presenting some aspect of practice in SE Asia that are quite prevalent. If more people had a better idea of the breadth of practices and attitudes that exist there, they might have a more balanced appreciation of what a living Buddhist culture is like.

As I've pointed out frequently elsewhere, looking just as some of the surface aspect practices of Asian people and assuming that there is no substance to be found it would be painting the societies in a bad light, but denying those practices exist is simply unrealistic.

I completely agree. It's just that, like almost every group/clique of Westerners who live in Thailand, complaining about Thai society and Thai people seems to be the norm. Most of chownah's posts in the past regarding Thailand and Thai Buddhism have been mostly critical. That is the reason why I pointed out that it isn't necessarily a Thai trait to have blind faith and superficial beliefs in a religion, since it is the exact same thing in the West with Christianity and the church. Considering these negative aspects as Thai or Asian personality traits is false and biased (hence my response).

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samseva
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Re: Former follower recalls his “riches to rags” story after being inducted to Dhammakaya sect

Postby samseva » Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:50 pm

chownah wrote:I have lived in thailand for over ten years and have a reasonably good idea about the concept of "tam boon" which means "make merit". Are you familiar with the idea of making merit? It seems that you are of the view that making merit is not a significant part of thai buddhism...is that right?
Also, it seems that you are of the view that making merit is a bad thing....is that right? I claim that thai people do alot of merit making and that it is an important part of their buddhist experience but please note that I have not said anything to indicate that I think it is a bad thing. I don't judge other people's views on buddhism (usually) and it is you that seems to be making the value judgement....but I very well may be wrong and have misconstued your views on this.
Today my wife's cousin will enter the monkhood probably for a week or two. He is doing this because his life hasn't been going well and he hopes that being a monk for awhile will improve his circumstances.
Also today my wife and her siblings will host a gathering to make merit for their recently departed mother. The purpose is to make merit for her.....and also doing good things for one's mother is also seen as a way to make merit for oneself.
Making merit is a very popular thing to do in thailand it seems.

chownah

Yes, I know what tam bun (ทำบุญ) is and I know it is an important part of Thai Buddhism and Thai society. It is neither good nor bad, since the mind of the person is what determines if the act of making merit is wholesome or not.

The main reason why I expressed disapproval of your post is because most of your posts in the past regarding Thailand, Thai Buddhism or Thai people have been mostly negative or critical. In the post, you were stereotyping how Thai people (and Asian people) are, and while I don't deny blind faith and such things are present in Thai society, I described that these aren't only Thai or Asian personality traits, since the exact same thing has happened and is happening with the Christian church in the West.

slimdabuddhist
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby slimdabuddhist » Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:16 pm

I agree with Samvera. Chownah was telling me earlier in this thread that I should steer clear because I live in the U.S. I don't know anything about Thai culture. FYI Chownah, I AM Thai and I was born in Thailand. Don't go around painting a negative picture of my people.

chownah
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby chownah » Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:04 am

samseva wrote:
chownah wrote:I have lived in thailand for over ten years and have a reasonably good idea about the concept of "tam boon" which means "make merit". Are you familiar with the idea of making merit? It seems that you are of the view that making merit is not a significant part of thai buddhism...is that right?
Also, it seems that you are of the view that making merit is a bad thing....is that right? I claim that thai people do alot of merit making and that it is an important part of their buddhist experience but please note that I have not said anything to indicate that I think it is a bad thing. I don't judge other people's views on buddhism (usually) and it is you that seems to be making the value judgement....but I very well may be wrong and have misconstued your views on this.
Today my wife's cousin will enter the monkhood probably for a week or two. He is doing this because his life hasn't been going well and he hopes that being a monk for awhile will improve his circumstances.
Also today my wife and her siblings will host a gathering to make merit for their recently departed mother. The purpose is to make merit for her.....and also doing good things for one's mother is also seen as a way to make merit for oneself.
Making merit is a very popular thing to do in thailand it seems.

chownah

Yes, I know what tam bun (ทำบุญ) is and I know it is an important part of Thai Buddhism and Thai society. It is neither good nor bad, since the mind of the person is what determines if the act of making merit is wholesome or not.

The main reason why I expressed disapproval of your post is because most of your posts in the past regarding Thailand, Thai Buddhism or Thai people have been mostly negative or critical. In the post, you were stereotyping how Thai people (and Asian people) are, and while I don't deny blind faith and such things are present in Thai society, I described that these aren't only Thai or Asian personality traits, since the exact same thing has happened and is happening with the Christian church in the West.

You say that most of my postsin the past regarding thailand, thai buddhism or thai people have been mostly negative and critical. If this is so then it should be easy for you to find some and bring some evidence for what you say. Please do that. You have severly criticized me and I think you should provide something to justify this criticism.

You seem to agree that making merit is an important part of thaii budhdism and thai society. That is why I said "Donating to the temple what you can in the promise of improving your life and paving your way to buddhist heaven is to a great extent what thai buddhism is all about". When I first posted this you said "Trying to paint Thai society and pretty much the East as a whole in bad light regarding religion (and general personality) is being biased."....now it seems that you are agreeing with me. Yesterday when I visited the newly ordained monk who is making merit and when I attended part of the merit making ceremony for my deceased mother in law I asked my wife if merit making is important to thai people and she said that yes it is very important for thai people. Then I asked her one person at a time, going through our immediate neighborhood if those people did samadhi (which is what thais often call sitting crosslegged with eyes closed and meditating) and one after the other she said no they don't and after about five or six people were mentioned and she commented that they did not do samadhi she said that no one does it. You and I both agree that some thai people do it but I think this is a strong indication that merit making is a large part of thai buddhism at least for the people in my village and that sitting meditation is not. PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOT SAYING ANYTHING BAD ABOUT MY NEIGHBORS OR ABOUT ALL THAI PEOPLE OR ANYONE AT ALL. I AM ONLY REPORTING WHAT MY EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN. I RESPECT MY NEIGHBORS AND THEIR PRACTICE OF THE DHAMMA. IF YOU THINK I AM TALKING BAD ABOUT THEM THEN IT IS YOU THAT DOES NOT RESPECT THEM BECAUSE WHEN YOU SEE THE WAY THEY REALLY ARE YOU THINK IT IS BAD.
Please bring some example where you think my posting has been negative.
chownah

chownah
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby chownah » Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:07 am

slimdabuddhist wrote:I agree with Samvera. Chownah was telling me earlier in this thread that I should steer clear because I live in the U.S. I don't know anything about Thai culture. FYI Chownah, I AM Thai and I was born in Thailand. Don't go around painting a negative picture of my people.

You have severly criticized me. Please show me what I have said which makes you say this by bringing here what I posted.
chownah

TRobinson465
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby TRobinson465 » Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:14 am

Hello again folks,

Just dropping in since i have a day off thanks to xmas. btw i finally finished renovating my yard. Ill make a few posts, then expect a similar hiatus, so dont expect me to reply or anything later.

First id like to say kudos to the moderaters, looks like thats the end of random unsubstantiated accusations against the temple. Though i will say i find it a bit odd that the terms of service used to say "vilifying a tradition that isnt your own is strictly forbidden". but that rule was totally ignored for 7 years, and now that this thread was moved to hot topics that particular rule is no longer in the terms of service.

First off, you are right ManEagle in regards to that mano thing, tho in my defense the lastest post was in response to some1. Not saying im not in the wrong, but i honestly just really really dont like Mano so that is why i rip on him so much. If some1 made up crazy accusations repeatedly about Ajahn Chah or something im sure many ppl here would have similar animosity. Tho since you have experience with dhammakaya i suppose i dont have to tell you the stuff he says is made up since you already know that your wife's digital tally counter isnt a "high tech" communication device and that we arent Nazi sympathizers (Mano's words). Im not sure what you mean by "or anyone else", sounds kinda like visuddho and his Robinson "and others" comment, its kinda vague. im pretty sure i only direct this toward Mano, who i just have a large disdain for. Tho my comments are clearly not misguided since after i left some ppl decided to cite him and pretend he was credible again. If you can find anybody else to substantiate his accusations feel free to post them here. BTW we cant sue mano because hes protected by "this government" (in the words of the evangelicals here: THIS GOVERNMENT has to be the one to take down WPD). In fact mano was appointed a member of the national reform council of Juntaland after the Coup. Its the same reason why Buddha Issara (google him) still hasnt been prosecuted for shutting down bangkok and having one of his thugs shoot and kill somebody. "this government" protects him.

Heres something from Buddha Issara's english FB page, it has a translation from an interview he took. NCPO is the current government of Juntaland. Literally every1 knows the dictator protects him. https://www.facebook.com/Buddha.Isara.English/posts/1742802325970664:0

Heres some news about the case i noticed no1 decided to post.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/news/national/30302275

Juntaland is charging us with over 100 more things. Cuz you know, nothing suspicious about adding a bunch of random accusations. or charging only dhammakaya for "recieving stolen property" in a case that involves over 20 groups. or charging Dhammakaya for forest encrouchment for land that we have owned for 20 years. Yup. nothing suspicious about that at all.

Also, many of you seem to have completely forgotten what the case is even about. heres some sources again

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=339&p=396011&hilit=proof#p396011

The charge isnt embezzlement, bkkpost just words it that way cuz they are Junta Pawns. (try googling bangkok post and dhammakaya and see the kind of stuff they say about WPD, even b4 the case.) the charge is money laundering and receiving stolen property. that money DSI recieved is not from WPD, it is from the embezzler who also gave dhammakaya (as well as other temples and charities) donations. as i provided documents for b4, its been confirmed that The temple spent every baht of those donations on constructing buildings, that is by definition not money laundering, if anything, DSI was the one laundering money.

STILL waiting for the other 20 plus groups (including DSI apparently, thank you for that post) to be investigated for "receiving stolen property"
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby slimdabuddhist » Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:26 am

It probably wasn't you that posted that post but my mistake. but still here is an example of how you portray Thailand and it doesn't excuse you from the fact that you have portrayed Thai people as sheep and in a negative way.

chownah wrote:
samseva wrote: the general or specific definition of the word 'Buddhism' and 'Buddhist' changes according to the group of people and even from person to person.

Exactly. That is why the people in thailand are buddhists and are doing buddhist practices when they make merit by giving money to a temple....and why the people in thailand who run temples do not hesitate to seek donations for the temple since it is helping the people make merit by creating a temple to promulgate the buddha's teachings.....this is how it works in thailand.

But there is another dimension to this in thailand. The temple also is usually the center of community activity especially in villages...so....giving to the temple is not only aiding in the teaching of the buddha's lessons it is also taking part and being part of the community and helping to support the community. Think of this community aspect and think dhammakaya. There are probably many subcommunities within the temple since it is so big and probably with one big overarching community aspect when the big pow wows are held. Dhammakaya seems to me to be just a really big version of the traditional thai temple...it doesn't stick to what the western audience usually thinks is appropriate activity but it does fit really well in to the thai conception of what a temple should be.
chownah

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mikenz66
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:31 am

chownah wrote:You seem to agree that making merit is an important part of thaii budhdism and thai society. That is why I said "Donating to the temple what you can in the promise of improving your life and paving your way to buddhist heaven is to a great extent what thai buddhism is all about".
...
Please bring some example where you think my posting has been negative.

It seems to me that the only reason for thinking that this statement is negative:
chownah wrote:"Donating to the temple what you can in the promise of improving your life and paving your way to buddhist heaven is to a great extent what thai buddhism is all about".

is if one thinks that there is something negative about donating and making merit.

That would be an excellent example of assuming that Buddhism in Asia is not "real Buddhism", because they value practices other than meditation:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=28348#p405033

Having said that, my Thai friends, most of whom also don't do much meditation, are invariably very enthusiastic when I tell them I am going off on a retreat, so clearly they value meditation, they just don't get around to it themselves very often. However, the fact that they, and people like them, give money to build and maintain meditation-friendly places makes it possible for those few of us who do get around to it to do it inexpensively. So, without them, I wouldn't be able to so easily and cheaply...

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby TRobinson465 » Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:10 am

ManEagle wrote:I do wish they'd hurry up and get this Dhammajayo business sorted out soon.


I agree with this, im getting really sick of this. I understand what your going through ManEagle cuz i go to dhammakaya and im getting worn out with all the chanting. i miss the meditation. so i know what you mean. After the current dictator seized control WPD started doing chanting of the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta because its power is supposed to help protect buddhism or something, i think because of this phrase "the Bhagavā has set in motion the supreme Wheel of Dhamma, which cannot be stopped by samaṇas or brahmins, devas, Māras, Brahmā or anyone in the world." but im not sure. I myself do it with my branch and i find the chant quite soothing and i like it, but im starting to get tired of it lol. so i do hope its sorted out soon.

BTW heres a nice piece from a thai scholar, it makes some broad and unfavorable generalizations about dhammakaya but i think its a good piece to read regarding Dhammakaya in thailand and the current situation, its not very favorable to the temple but its great for understanding

http://www.newmandala.org/can-thailand-tolerate-one-form-buddhism/

Like i said in the past it seems like your wife takes it to an extreme. at least at my branch most ppl only do the verse a few times and the extra verses are just done by a few hardcore ppl which your wife appears to fall under. Last time you said it is not your wife or Dhammakaya that has to change, it is you. I think i can give you some advice that can help you out ManEagle.

The chanting thing is something you will have to wait out. from what i was told attendance at Dhammakaya actually increased after the coup. even b4 the case started. the Media in Juntaland was attacking us relentlessly under "this government" (as kumara mentioned earlier) and it made a lot of the ppl at dhammakaya more determined and more loyal to the temple with all the slander in the thai media since they knew firsthand it wasnt true. So honestly, your wife is one of those ppl and shes taking it to a higher extreme because of the situation making her more loyal to the temple. you will have to wait that out.

But heres some things you can do. The main temple actually recently asked the branches overseas to find ways to make it so more ppl "native" to that area attend rather than just thais who moved. You should try getting involved at your wife's temple (maybe attend english meditation class or something) until you get more known by the staff there. Then you should maybe make some suggestions on how the temple can change to be more friendly to foriegners and raise some of your concerns. I once went on a meditation retreat with numerous ppl who were mostly born and raised in the US. After, the staff asked us how they can improve thier operations, and the ppl at the retreat had a HUGE list of things they said should change. Dhammakaya is far from perfect and they know that. You are a westerner, if you get to know the staff at your wife's temple a bit you can try to make suggestions and let them know some of your concerns. Based on what i experience at my branch, they generally take suggestions from westerners to heart since they know there is a bit of a cultural barrier. If you can befreind some of the staff you can let them know your concerns and how some of these methods arent compatible in the west and whatnot.

I think its a good suggestion, my branch has asked me and many of the ppl raised in the US regarding how to adapt. Dhammakaya was pretty successful in thailand but what works in thailand doesnt work here in the US and you should let them know that.


PS this will be my last post for a bit probably. ill just stick around and see if this post gets approved first i guess.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

TRobinson465
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby TRobinson465 » Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:25 am

Okay so i made a 2nd post but apparently only my 1st and 3rd post got posted. Maybe i made a mistake and my 2nd post wasnt fully submitted, but yeah. this was supposed to go b4 my last post directed at ManEagle.

So really, i dont think Chownah is racist or anything. You guys are getting carried away. Hes just pointing out that Buddhists from buddhist countries have a different idea of buddhism than people who are not from buddhist countries. How you experience Buddhism is different based on where you get it from. If you are from a country where Buddhism is ingrained in the culture its different from buddhism for some1 who grew up elsewhere and finds buddhism in a different way. Many of the criticisms of dhammakaya Im seeing here apply to thai buddhism in general. Donations are used by many thais as a way to improve thier lives. check out this video here. (turn on CC for eng subs) its regarding the "receiving stolen goods" case involving Dhammakaya, the thai red cross, and over 20 different groups including apparently DSI where only Dhammakaya is being investigated, but it makes some points about how a lot thais view buddhism.

phpBB [video]


This is actually a thing in thailand, Thanissaro Bhikkhu discussed a similar scenario that actually happened to him that the talk show host describes.

And look i dont agree with it either and how they fundraise is one of the things i dont like about dhammakaya, (but this is from my perspective as a westerner who grew up in the US.) but i still choose to go there because i like a lot of the other stuff and how they fundraise is similar to what other temples do anyways so what can i do? Same with the supernatural stuff, it doesnt even make sense to bring that up. Supernatural stuff is rampant in the buddhist scriptures. the Buddhas left-hand monk maha mogallana was foremost in supernatural abilities. This is rampant in the forest tradition also. It makes no sense to bring up stuff like donations and handling money and supernatural stuff on a thread on Wat Phra Dhammakaya when all of that stuff can be found in other temples too.

If all of your complaints about Wat Phra dhammkaya are just about stuff that exists in Thai Buddhism in general it makes no sense to put it on this thread. Make another thread on Thai Buddhism and trash and slander and vilify thai buddhism. Slim appears to only have experience with dhammakaya so he doesnt seem to know the difference between stuff Dhammakaya does and stuff most Thai temples in general do. I have explored many many different temples of various traditions, Dhammakaya encourages members to go and visit and support other temples in fact. many of these complaints are not unique to dhammakaya. if we are ever going to get anywhere in this thread we have to stop focusing on the things Dhammakaya does that are the same as what other temples do. Even if you think its wrong thats unfairly singling out one organization and it doesnt make sense in the first place. Thats like criticizing only the catholic church for believing in the concept of tithe.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

TRobinson465
Posts: 80
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby TRobinson465 » Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:22 pm

ManEagle wrote:
I wasn't going to bother with this anymore but something inside me can't resist.

My only comment here is that, correct me if I'm wrong (which actually I know I'm not because I've already checked), YOU are the one who keeps on about Mano. Aside from his name being mentioned in a link someone posted months ago he has not been cited by anyone else.



Okay i just realized i forgot to mention something. This is for you again ManEagle. Im not saying im not overduing it with the mano/mettanando bhikkhu attacks , because i realize i am (you yourself asked me to respond to him in an earlier post btw). but I want to say that you dont seem to know what he accuses us of so thats why you dont know the evangelicals here were citing him. They cite him, they just dont always attribute thier accusations to him (largely because only having one person to back up all your accusations looks stupid). Heres a few examples from the thread (but i assure you, there are many more on this thread), i can tell they got this from Mano because i read up on some of his wacko accusations, even if they do not attribute it to him. You should consider reading up on some of his claims, and youll instantly know when an evangelical here is getting info from Mano even when its not stated (sometimes you can tell by just the wording they use). Feel free to ignore my numerous statements proving that Mano has made false claims about the temple b4, read some of these accusations and decide for yourself. You do have firsthand experience with Dhammakaya after all. So you should know how true these random (mano based) accusations are.

Kumara wrote:
Wat Phra Dhammakāya is an established international
organization—a spiritual empire that grew out of the charismatic
leadership of Phra Phromayanthera or Phra Chaiboon Dhammajayo
which vows to promote the mission of the founding father of the
meditation technique worldwide. In fact, the monastic activities are
merely the tip of this iceberg; the material and financial expansions of
the community have been more progressive than meditation retreats.
Equipped with its own twenty-four-hour satellite TV, infinite funding,
superb location, gigantic piece of land not far from Bangkok, and
millions of followers, many of whom hold high positions in the cabinet,
private sector, military and political parties—Wat Phra Dhammakāya will
expand, not only to fulfill its apparent mission, but also to make radical
changes to the political system of Thailand.


Essentially, its becoming the Thai/Buddhist equivalent of Scientology. Most cult experts I've read about spend most of their resources on preventive education, which I agree is the best thing to do.

It's like a computer virus. A computer with a user who knows how computer viruses work would be equipped with preventive measures. Even with if the virus managed to infiltrate, the user would be discerning enough to be aware of it and do what is necessary.



Kumara wrote:So, of course they have to (and the wording probably had to be okayed by Dk lawyers). Hey, who wants to play the legal game with an organisation with virtually unlimited funds?

Anyway, with that kind of humiliation, we can understand their efforts after the current government took over. (heres the quote i mentioned earlier regarding "this gov" and the media btw)


suriyopama wrote:
That obsession for power may explain why Dhammachayo is an admirer of Hitler and claims that if the Nazis would have not lost the war, today the world would be a better place to live in.


Pannavuddho Bhikkhu wrote:
What is even of much greater worry is the attitude of Dhammakaya and Dhammachayo towards Hitler and the Third Reich (Nazi-ism). Hitler is Dhammachayo's idol!! Hitler is probably the most evil man who ever lived on this planet.The Nazis murdered 6 million Jews and millions upon millions of other people.They murdered anyone who wasn't a fully healthy German. They not only murdered these poor people, but severely tortured them as well.Continually,captured victims would arrive daily, crushed in very long trains, at the concentration camps to be gassed or burnt to death. Hitler and his associates practiced satanic dark rites and ceremonies.These were absolutely evil people.


gavesako wrote:Dr. Mano, ex-monk at Dhammakaya and close to Dhammajayo, keeps appearing on Thai media and revealing more and more of the inner secrets of the organization. The latest article describes how Dhammajayo admires Hitler as a model, they even share the same birthday (one day difference). This would not be surprising if you consider the Dhammakaya iconography and their mass gatherings. He quotes Dhammajayo as saying "I don't even care about being the Sangharaja, I want to conquer the whole world". For that of course you need lots of money, and Dhammajayo from the start was investing money privately into some businesses, including a weapons company. He sees himself as a sort of Dhamma army commander fighting with the dark force in the universe.


suriyopama wrote:Dhammachayo is a self-confessed admirer of Hitler. He sustains that Hitler was intrinsically a good person, and that if the Nazis would have won WWII, today the world would be a better place to live. Dhammachayo struggles for power and his dream is that his cult dominates the world, and he means it.


^yeah none of these sound crazy at all.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

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gavesako
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby gavesako » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:10 am

Star Wars!

A large number of police and officials from the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) surrounded Wat Phra Dhammakaya Tuesday morning to try to enter the temple.
The force arrived at the Pathum Thani temple site about 3am Tuesday, and was stationed at entrance Gates 1, 4, 5 and 6. The DSI officers at Gate 4 sent up a drone to send back video of the situation inside the temple.
The drone flight was cancelled after 10 minutes, when someone inside allegedly tried to cripple it or bring it down with a portable laser. :jedi:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general ... aya-temple
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

ajahnchah.org - Teachings of Ajahn Chah in many languages
Dhammatube - Videos on Buddhist practice
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts

Turmeric
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:11 am

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby Turmeric » Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:55 pm

gavesako wrote:Star Wars!

A large number of police and officials from the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) surrounded Wat Phra Dhammakaya Tuesday morning to try to enter the temple.
The force arrived at the Pathum Thani temple site about 3am Tuesday, and was stationed at entrance Gates 1, 4, 5 and 6. The DSI officers at Gate 4 sent up a drone to send back video of the situation inside the temple.
The drone flight was cancelled after 10 minutes, when someone inside allegedly tried to cripple it or bring it down with a portable laser. :jedi:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general ... aya-temple


To let everyone here know, I've been informed that the bangkok post and thenation delete pro Dhammakaya comments. I have a friend that told me they tried to post there and they get deleted. So if you go into the comment section you might find that every comment is anti Dhammakaya. I think this says something about the credibility of these websites and it raises suspicion about what their intentions actually are.

slimdabuddhist
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:07 am

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby slimdabuddhist » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:30 pm

phpBB [video]


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Lol you know what sounds crazy? An abbot that claims he can read into people's past lives and tells them that because they accumulated bad karma that their child is mentally ill because of their bad karma? Or claiming that he knows that Steve jobs is now in heaven n he resides above silicon valley now watching over it. These so called "case studies" do not seem buddhist at all. I never heard of buddha meditating and telling others of how their past lives were. Please tell me more about how it's not a cult at all.

Turmeric
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:11 am

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby Turmeric » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:57 pm

slimdabuddhist wrote:
phpBB [video]


phpBB [video]

Lol you know what sounds crazy? An abbot that claims he can read into people's past lives and tells them that because they accumulated bad karma that their child is mentally ill because of their bad karma? Or claiming that he knows that Steve jobs is now in heaven n he resides above silicon valley now watching over it. These so called "case studies" do not seem buddhist at all. I never heard of buddha meditating and telling others of how their past lives were. Please tell me more about how it's not a cult at all.


Mental illness is a result of taking intoxicants in the past according to the Buddha( bad karma). Magical powers such as seeing previous lives, where people are reborn after death, etc, come from meditation. The proof is in the seeing. If you want to see how these things are possible then you should meditate more.

"the ability to remember past lives,
to know where living beings are reborn after death,
and to cleanse the heart of the effluents (àsava) of
defilement: These three forms of intuition — termed
nana-cakku, the eye of the mind — can arise for
people who train themselves in the area of the heart
and mind. " - Ajahn Lee


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