The cholesterol myth

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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:56 pm

danieLion wrote:Consuming cholesterol does NOTHING to cholesterol levels.

YOUR BODY MAKES ALL ITS OWN CHOLESTEROL and DOES NOT USE ANY CHOLESTEROL YOU EAT. Talking about what consuming cholesterol does to your cholesterol levels is nonsense.
Two things: don't yell, and what actual support do you have for this.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby danieLion » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:06 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
danieLion wrote:Consuming cholesterol does NOTHING to cholesterol levels.

YOUR BODY MAKES ALL ITS OWN CHOLESTEROL and DOES NOT USE ANY CHOLESTEROL YOU EAT. Talking about what consuming cholesterol does to your cholesterol levels is nonsense.
Two things: don't yell, and what actual support do you have for this.


The nutrition science class I took as an undergrad. She said when you're done with this class you'll know more about nutrition than most doctors. So the problem here is that too many of us believe what our doctors tell us without thinking for ourselves.


Your body uses substances in the fat and protein you consume to manufacture its own cholesterol.

Why do you think I'm yelling? I typed that in silence.

Your body, mainly your liver, produces 75 percent of your cholesterol; your small intestine also aids in both the creation and absorption of cholesterol. The average diet adds another 300 to 500 mg of cholesterol. This external cholesterol comes from animal and dairy products. But even if you eat foods without cholesterol, the carbs, fats and proteins all break down eventually and release carbon, which your liver turns into cholesterol.
http://health.howstuffworks.com/diseases-conditions/cardiovascular/cholesterol/difference-between-ldl-and-hdl-cholesterol1.htm

Cholesterol is the principal sterol synthesized by animals; in vertebrates it is formed predominantly in the liver
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholesterol

So that's three sources: my professor, Discovery Health, and Wikipedia. Do you want more?

PS: What's the opposite of "actual"?
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:29 pm

danieLion wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
danieLion wrote:Consuming cholesterol does NOTHING to cholesterol levels.

YOUR BODY MAKES ALL ITS OWN CHOLESTEROL and DOES NOT USE ANY CHOLESTEROL YOU EAT. Talking about what consuming cholesterol does to your cholesterol levels is nonsense.
Two things: don't yell, and what actual support do you have for this.


The nutrition science class I took as an undergrad. She said when you're done with this class you'll know more about nutrition than most doctors. So the problem here is that too many of us believe what our doctors tell us without thinking for ourselves.


Your body uses substances in the fat and protein you consume to manufacture its own cholesterol.
Changed your msg, I see.

Why do you think I'm yelling? I typed that in silence.
TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS THE ONLINE SAME AS OF YELLING.

Your body, mainly your liver, produces 75 percent of your cholesterol; your small intestine also aids in both the creation and absorption of cholesterol. The average diet adds another 300 to 500 mg of cholesterol. This external cholesterol comes from animal and dairy products. But even if you eat foods without cholesterol, the carbs, fats and proteins all break down eventually and release carbon, which your liver turns into cholesterol.
http://health.howstuffworks.com/diseases-conditions/cardiovascular/cholesterol/difference-between-ldl-and-hdl-cholesterol1.htm
In other words your initial claim, which you deleted, was wrong.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby danieLion » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:37 pm

tiltbillings wrote:In other words your initial claim, which you deleted, was wrong.

What the hell are you talking about? I didn't change or delete anything (although I would change "ANY" to "MOST IF NOT ALL"). I think you need to re-read it. Again, nothing was changed or deleted, so I don't know where you get this.

Benefits of Cholesterol: http://cholesterol.about.com/lw/Health- ... d-For-.htm

Also, changing our minds (or revising claims as we go) is SCIENTIFIC (typed in silence).
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:45 pm

danieLion wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:In other words your initial claim, which you deleted, was wrong.

What the hell are you talking about? I didn't change or delete anything (although I would change "ANY" to "MOST IF NOT ALL"). I think you need to re-read it. Again, nothing was changed or deleted, so I don't know where you get this.

Benefits of Cholesterol: http://cholesterol.about.com/lw/Health- ... d-For-.htm

Also, changing our minds (or revising claims as we go) is SCIENTIFIC (typed in silence).
Yep. My apologies. You are correct, the problematic bit is all still there:

YOUR BODY MAKES ALL ITS OWN CHOLESTEROL and DOES NOT USE ANY CHOLESTEROL YOU EAT. Talking about what consuming cholesterol does to your cholesterol levels is nonsense.

By the fact of what you quoted, I'd ask for your money back from your nutrition class:

Your body, mainly your liver, produces 75 percent of your cholesterol; your small intestine also aids in both the creation and absorption of cholesterol. The average diet adds another 300 to 500 mg of cholesterol. This external cholesterol comes from animal and dairy products.

Your all caps statement is obviously wrong.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby danieLion » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:50 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
danieLion wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:In other words your initial claim, which you deleted, was wrong.

What the hell are you talking about? I didn't change or delete anything (although I would change "ANY" to "MOST IF NOT ALL"). I think you need to re-read it. Again, nothing was changed or deleted, so I don't know where you get this.

Benefits of Cholesterol: http://cholesterol.about.com/lw/Health- ... d-For-.htm

Also, changing our minds (or revising claims as we go) is SCIENTIFIC (typed in silence).
Yep. My apologies. You are correct, the problematic bit is all still there:

YOUR BODY MAKES ALL ITS OWN CHOLESTEROL and DOES NOT USE ANY CHOLESTEROL YOU EAT. Talking about what consuming cholesterol does to your cholesterol levels is nonsense.

By the fact of what you quoted, I'd ask for your money back from your nutrition class:

Your body, mainly your liver, produces 75 percent of your cholesterol; your small intestine also aids in both the creation and absorption of cholesterol. The average diet adds another 300 to 500 mg of cholesterol. This external cholesterol comes from animal and dairy products.

Your all caps statement is obviously wrong.

The study I just cited says 85% and notes that even that's controversial. She's head of the nutrition department of a large hospital and educates doctors on nutrition, so I will not ask for my money back. Besides, don't blame her for my mistakes.

Revised "claim": cholesterol in food is neglible.
Benifit: to control blood levels, reduce fat and protein intake and don't worry about cholesterol in food (and exercise).
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:55 pm

danieLion wrote:The study I just cited says 85% and notes that even that's controversial. She's head of the nutrition department of a large hospital and educates doctors on nutrition, so I will not ask for my money back. Besides, don't blame her for my mistakes.
Then maybe she needs to revise yoiur grade downwards.

Revised "claim": cholesterol in food is neglible.
Benifit: to control blood levels, reduce fat and protein intake and don't worry about cholesterol in food (and exercise).
"Negligible" might be an overstatement.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby danieLion » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:24 am

Tilt,
I'm not making claims. I'm exploring ideas.

Why would she need to revise my grade? That's ludicrous, not to mention rude and ad hominem.

85% is not neglible. Plus, you throw the criticsisms of the validity of cholesterol testing into the mix and you have a very untrustworthy measure with little utility.

We yearn (crave) for authority, and doctors come off as authorities. But medicine is not a science, and if you know how to think for yourself, you won't fall for their crap (or be dazzled by their egotistical manners). When our sacred cows are slain, it always hurts.

If people start investigating the cholesterol claims for themselves they'll be less likely to pay to go the doctor office (in actuality, a pharmaceutical store) or pay for a pill to lower their cholesterol. So it's in the financial interest of doctors and pharmaceutical companies to get you to believe in their opinions about cholesterol. And the food industry wants you to believe it too, otherwise they could't get you to buy low cholesterol foods.

As Buddhists we should be more sceptical of any opinion connected to profit, as that's the first inidication we might be the victims of greed.
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:21 am

danieLion wrote:Tilt,
I'm not making claims. I'm exploring ideas.

Why would she need to revise my grade? That's ludicrous, not to mention rude and ad hominem.
As Foghorn Leghorn would say: "It was a joke, son, a joke."

. . .
Thanks for sharing your opinion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby danieLion » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:29 am

tiltbillings wrote:"Negligible" might be an overstatement.

What actual support do you have for this?
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:33 am

danieLion wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:"Negligible" might be an overstatement.

What actual support do you have for this?
Your source suggests 15% of cholesterol is from diet. Is 15% "negligible?"
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby danieLion » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:33 am

Tilt,
I accept your apology.

However:

According to this JAMA study:
Context: Reduction in egg consumption has been widely recommended to lower blood cholesterol levels and prevent coronary heart disease (CHD). Epidemiologic studies on egg consumption and risk of CHD are sparse.
Conclusions: These findings suggest that consumption of up to 1 egg per day is unlikely to have substantial overall impact on the risk of CHD or stroke among healthy men and women.


And:

According to Harvard’s Public School of Health
A solid body of research shows that for most people, cholesterol in food has a much smaller effect on blood levels of total cholesterol and harmful LDL cholesterol than does the mix of fats in the diet.


According to the University of Illinois Extension
Dietary cholesterol only has a slight effect on your total blood cholesterol level.

---
My wife works at a research hospital and participates in their health promotion program. The wellness guide they provided (2011-2012) has a chapter on cholesterol. In their five pages of excellent dietary recommendations not once do they recommend avoiding dietary cholesterol.

Furthermore:

Q.How much does the cholesterol I get through food really affect my blood cholesterol level....?
A.It depends. Most people absorb about half the cholesterol they consume through foods, but absorption rates vary (from 20 to 60 percent) from person to person. This variation may help explain why dietary cholesterol seems to increase levels of “unhealthy” LDL blood cholesterol in some people more than others, says EatingWell advisor Alice Lichtenstein (credentials).

In any case, saturated and trans fats have a bigger detrimental effect on blood cholesterol levels, and heart health in general, than dietary cholesterol does. “Trans and saturated fats not only affect how much plaque is deposited in blood vessels, but also may damage the tissue of blood vessels,” says Susan Moores, M.S., R.D., a spokesperson for the American Dietetic Association. With a few exceptions—notably eggs and shellfish—foods high in cholesterol, such as fatty meats and whole-milk dairy, also tend to be high in saturated fat. Cutting back on sources of saturated fat automatically limits intake of dietary cholesterol.

Really, the best approach to controlling blood cholesterol is a big-picture one. “Most important to heart health is achieving a healthy body weight through diet and exercise,” explains Lichtenstein. Independent of specific dietary choices, research shows that shedding excess pounds lowers “unhealthy” LDL cholesterol and boosts the “healthy” HDL kind.

Bottom line: Unless your doctor has advised you to, don’t sweat counting dietary cholesterol; it’s just one factor (and not the most important one) affecting blood lipids. Limit intake of saturated fats by loading up on vegetables, fruits and whole grains, choosing low-fat dairy and lean proteins, and substituting healthy oils for butter. When shopping for crackers, snacks and margarine-type spreads, buy only those that are labeled trans-fat-free (and don’t include “partially hydrogenated fat” in the ingredients list). Maintain a healthy weight. And, if you’d like, enjoy an egg each morning and shellfish several times a week.
Source


See also:
Myth: Eating Cholesterol-Rich Foods Raises Blood Cholesterol Levels
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:38 am

danieLion wrote:Tilt,
I accept your apology.
That is nice of you; however, an apology was not proffered. And your quotes -- and thank you for them -- give a nice overview of the variations on the issue.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby danieLion » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:Your body, mainly your liver, produces 75 percent of your cholesterol.
The research says this is extremely debatable; some studies say 85% (at what percent will you consider it neglible?).
tiltbillings wrote:The average diet adds another 300 to 500 mg of cholesterol.
The research also says this is extremely debatable.

tiltbillings wrote:Your all caps statement is obviously wrong.
It was only a little wrong and I revised it a while ago. Quit living in the past.
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:44 am

danieLion wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Your body, mainly your liver, produces 75 percent of your cholesterol.
The research says this is extremely debatable; some studies say 85% (at what percent will you consider it neglible?).
tiltbillings wrote:The average diet adds another 300 to 500 mg of cholesterol.
The research also says this is extremely debatable.

tiltbillings wrote:Your all caps statement is obviously wrong.
It was only a little wrong and I revised it a while ago. Quit living in the past.
If you go back, the 75% and the 300 to 500 quotes are yours. Not mine, but yours. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=14593&start=20#p212764

And you caps statement was wrong, but it nice to see that you can correct yourself. Looks like you need to do so again.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby danieLion » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:07 am

Your body has the ability to make al­l the cholesterol it needs for its various functions.
Source
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:12 am

danieLion wrote:
Your body has the ability to make al­l the cholesterol it needs for its various functions.
Source

And from that source:

Your body has the ability to make al­l the cholesterol it needs for these various functions. . . . Causes of High Cholesterol: Diet and DNA are the main sources of cholesterol. Learn why the numbers might be high in your case. . . . How to Lower Cholesterol: Like many conditions, eating right and exercising will control cholesterol. Learn what that means for you.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby danieLion » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:21 am

Only a little of the cholesterol in our blood comes from our food.
Source
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:31 am

danieLion wrote:
Only a little of the cholesterol in our blood comes from our food.
Source

Even your own sources are not necessarily consistent with each other.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby danieLion » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:39 am

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