Is a UK student loan considered debt

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.

Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby Buckwheat » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:10 pm

Mal wrote:
Buckwheat wrote:
Ask the senior monk under whom you would want to take dependence. His opinion is the only one that matters, because he will either say "yes" and you get to become a monk, or he will say "no" and you will have to find a job for a few years before you can become a monk.



Or you can find another senior monk.

Yes, but my underlying points are that (a) it is only the Preceptors opinion that matters, and (b) I doubt a senior monk in the Theravada tradition will allow such an ordination. However, if you find one... then bless your journey. :anjali:
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby Mal » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:46 am

Buckwheat wrote:Yes, but my underlying points are that (a) it is only the Preceptors opinion that matters, and (b) I doubt a senior monk in the Theravada tradition will allow such an ordination. However, if you find one... then bless your journey. :anjali:


Who are you to second guess a senior monk?
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby Mal » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:47 am

Mal wrote:
Buckwheat wrote:Yes, but my underlying points are that (a) it is only the Preceptors opinion that matters, and (b) I doubt a senior monk in the Theravada tradition will allow such an ordination. However, if you find one... then bless your journey. :anjali:


Who are you to second guess all senior monks in the Theravada tradition?
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:13 pm

The Buddha just so happened to of laid down this rule
VinayaMV1.33 wrote:'Bhikkhus, no debtor should be accepted into the sangha. Whoever does accept them into the sangha is guilty of a dukkata offence.'
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby Buckwheat » Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:36 am

Mal wrote:
Mal wrote:
Buckwheat wrote:Yes, but my underlying points are that (a) it is only the Preceptors opinion that matters, and (b) I doubt a senior monk in the Theravada tradition will allow such an ordination. However, if you find one... then bless your journey. :anjali:


Who are you to second guess all senior monks in the Theravada tradition?


Who am I second guessing? I am only suggesting you effort to find a senior monk to ordain a person with debt will be futile, a wild goose chase. However, I wish you luck on your journey.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby James the Giant » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:14 am

Gosh, that blows my mind! Shopping around to find a senior bhikkhu who is lax in vinaya? Not a good way to start a monastic life. Most people go the other way, look for a good conscientious preceptor.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby Mal » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:55 am

James the Giant wrote:Gosh, that blows my mind! Shopping around to find a senior bhikkhu who is lax in vinaya? Not a good way to start a monastic life. Most people go the other way, look for a good conscientious preceptor.


I'm not suggesting one should shop around for a lax senior bhikkhu, just one who can see that the UK student loan isn't really a loan.

If you call a sea horse a horse that doesn't mean it's a horse.

Of course I may never persuade you, or the senior bhikkhu, that it's not really a loan. But if I think it's not really a loan, isn't that sufficient? How would the senior bhikkhu know *for sure* that it's a loan. Everything is impermanent - even the definition of "loan" (as the UK government have shown...)
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby Mal » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:03 am

Buckwheat wrote:Who am I second guessing?


You said, "I doubt a senior monk in the Theravada tradition will allow such an ordination." That's guessing what the combined opinion of all senior monks will be.

Buckwheat wrote:I am only suggesting you effort to find a senior monk to ordain a person with debt will be futile, a wild goose chase.


Again, it isn't a debt. It only becomes debt if you earn a high wage.
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby Mal » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:23 am

Annapurna wrote:The state pays a monthly support for poor people, and they have to pay it back after finding a job.
ot money from the state.

I would feel grateful and indebted and would try to pay it back, if I had enjoyed this support.

But I didn't. My parents had payed an education insurance...


So it's all right for a rich kid like you to go off and be a monk but not poor German people?

Do you not feel you should pay your parents the insurance payments? Why should you have it better than poor people?

In the UK there would be no problem for a poor person to be a monk. If, say, the factories close in a town and someone is on "monthly support" for three years then he can go off and be a monk with a qualm - he is not expected to pay the money back.

Why should UK poor people have a better shot at being monks than German poor people?
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby daverupa » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:40 am

Fundamentally, lay Buddhist ethics in this respect are informed by secular designations of what counts as debt, per the Vinaya; that the ordination remains valid, and the preceptor suffers only a dukkata (same as if he had pulled up a weed) shows the level of importance here.

Crippling student debt is a complex social issue. It isn't a complex Vinaya issue.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby Maarten » Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:07 pm

Hi Mal,

I think I can understand your point of view. I don't know about the UK or Germany, but in the Netherlands you only have to pay the student loan back if you are capable of doing so. So if you aren't making any money it really isn't a depth. So I don't see any problem ordaining in this situation. No problems with angry borrowers coming after the monk. :)
And I know there are monks who would see it like this as well...

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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:30 pm

daverupa wrote:Fundamentally, lay Buddhist ethics in this respect are informed by secular designations of what counts as debt, per the Vinaya; that the ordination remains valid, and the preceptor suffers only a dukkata (same as if he had pulled up a weed) shows the level of importance here.

better not say the Dukkata are not important! a good monk would train in all rules. and when it comes to communial transactions may hold a stricter standard than at other times.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby daverupa » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:53 pm

Cittasanto wrote:better not say the Dukkata are not important!


Not once.

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:57 pm

Dukkata offences are basically down to a lack of care. inattentiveness to details and unfitting behaviour due to habit or heedlessness.
If one wants good training, whether or not a preceptor agrees that a student loan is debt or not is not important, but how they find out if it is debt or not is the important thing.
ones own opinion is not a guarantee it is considered debt from the vinaya point of view.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby Buckwheat » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:26 am

Mal wrote:
Buckwheat wrote:Who am I second guessing?

You said, "I doubt a senior monk in the Theravada tradition will allow such an ordination." That's guessing what the combined opinion of all senior monks will be.


It would not be "second guessing" until you find a senior monk who says it's not a debt and I said that monk was wrong. Until then, I am just "guessing". And yes, I am guessing (why else did you ask this question on a public forum?) based on the fact that most monks I've met don't want to come even close to breaking a rule, so they interpret them strictly. I only share my opinion because you asked for it. Feel free to prove me wrong by finding a monk that will ordain you and I will salute you.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby Mawkish1983 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:42 am

What I've seen in this thread, in general, is non-UK residents asserting that a UK student loan is a loan, therefore debt, therefore one cannot ordain with one, whilst UK residents argue that a UK student loan is not a loan, not debt, so one can ordain.

History lesson: once upon a time university education in the UK was free and there were no student loans (of the nature discussed in this thread). Then, one day, someone decided to start charging for that education, so the government gave bursaries away to pay for the fees, expecting to be able to reclaim that money via the increased tax the graduates would pay on their higher salaries. Universities soon realised that they could increase the fees, and the government would always match the money. The government, forseeing a financial shortfall, changed the name of the bursary to 'student loan' so that they could tax graduates income a second time to reclaim the money. (continued in next post)
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby Mawkish1983 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:48 am

Loans are generally means tested; the lender checks that the money can be repaid. UK student loans are not. Loans are repaid regularly by the same amount each installment. UK student loans are not. Loans have interest charged above inflation to earn profit for the lender. UK student loans are not.

The UK student loan is a bursary with an associated graduate tax, that IS what it is. It's called a loan, but it shares no similarity with bank loans or any other kind. A UK student loan is NOT a loan and NOT a debt. No bailiff will come to reclaim the money and there is no expectation that everyone will repay it.

(My opinions, of course, but rooted in facts)
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:00 am

Mawkish1983 wrote:The UK student loan is a bursary with an associated graduate tax, that IS what it is. It's called a loan, but it shares no similarity with bank loans or any other kind. A UK student loan is NOT a loan and NOT a debt. No bailiff will come to reclaim the money and there is no expectation that everyone will repay it.

(My opinions, of course, but rooted in facts)
But, of course, the cost of the "loan/"tax" gets dumped upon the rest of the tax paying public.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:29 am

tiltbillings wrote:But, of course, the cost of the "loan/"tax" gets dumped upon the rest of the tax paying public.

Well, yes, but previously the whole cost of the education was carried by the tax paying public. Which is a good or bad thing depending on your preferences...

We have a similar thing here. When I was a student back in the 70s I got an allowance to attend university and fees were negligible. Now we expect students to take out loans to pay the fees (which in our case are about 1/3 of the cost, the government still pays the other 2/3 directly to the universities).

:anjali:
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:35 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Mawkish1983 wrote:The UK student loan is a bursary with an associated graduate tax, that IS what it is. It's called a loan, but it shares no similarity with bank loans or any other kind. A UK student loan is NOT a loan and NOT a debt. No bailiff will come to reclaim the money and there is no expectation that everyone will repay it.

(My opinions, of course, but rooted in facts)
But, of course, the cost of the "loan/"tax" gets dumped upon the rest of the tax paying public.

When it was a bursary or free it was the tax payers who got dumped with it.
Nothing changed except there is some recuperation of some of the money in some of the cases. due to this "second tax".

Is it a loan in the traditional sense? no.
Does that mean that the vinaya would see it any differently? no. however that also does not mean that an Upajjhiya would not accept the Dukkata in this instance due to its unusual nature.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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