Buckwheat wrote:
Ask the senior monk under whom you would want to take dependence. His opinion is the only one that matters, because he will either say "yes" and you get to become a monk, or he will say "no" and you will have to find a job for a few years before you can become a monk.
Or you can find another senior monk.
Yes, but my underlying points are that (a) it is only the Preceptors opinion that matters, and (b) I doubt a senior monk in the Theravada tradition will allow such an ordination. However, if you find one... then bless your journey.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Buckwheat wrote:
Yes, but my underlying points are that (a) it is only the Preceptors opinion that matters, and (b) I doubt a senior monk in the Theravada tradition will allow such an ordination. However, if you find one... then bless your journey.
Buckwheat wrote:
Yes, but my underlying points are that (a) it is only the Preceptors opinion that matters, and (b) I doubt a senior monk in the Theravada tradition will allow such an ordination. However, if you find one... then bless your journey.
Who are you to second guess all senior monks in the Theravada tradition?
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form. John Stuart Mill
Buckwheat wrote:
Yes, but my underlying points are that (a) it is only the Preceptors opinion that matters, and (b) I doubt a senior monk in the Theravada tradition will allow such an ordination. However, if you find one... then bless your journey.
Who are you to second guess all senior monks in the Theravada tradition?
Who am I second guessing? I am only suggesting you effort to find a senior monk to ordain a person with debt will be futile, a wild goose chase. However, I wish you luck on your journey.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Gosh, that blows my mind! Shopping around to find a senior bhikkhu who is lax in vinaya? Not a good way to start a monastic life. Most people go the other way, look for a good conscientious preceptor.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress. SN 9.11
James the Giant wrote:Gosh, that blows my mind! Shopping around to find a senior bhikkhu who is lax in vinaya? Not a good way to start a monastic life. Most people go the other way, look for a good conscientious preceptor.
I'm not suggesting one should shop around for a lax senior bhikkhu, just one who can see that the UK student loan isn't really a loan.
If you call a sea horse a horse that doesn't mean it's a horse.
Of course I may never persuade you, or the senior bhikkhu, that it's not really a loan. But if I think it's not really a loan, isn't that sufficient? How would the senior bhikkhu know *for sure* that it's a loan. Everything is impermanent - even the definition of "loan" (as the UK government have shown...)
You said, "I doubt a senior monk in the Theravada tradition will allow such an ordination." That's guessing what the combined opinion of all senior monks will be.
Buckwheat wrote:
I am only suggesting you effort to find a senior monk to ordain a person with debt will be futile, a wild goose chase.
Again, it isn't a debt. It only becomes debt if you earn a high wage.
Annapurna wrote:
The state pays a monthly support for poor people, and they have to pay it back after finding a job.
ot money from the state.
I would feel grateful and indebted and would try to pay it back, if I had enjoyed this support.
But I didn't. My parents had payed an education insurance...
So it's all right for a rich kid like you to go off and be a monk but not poor German people?
Do you not feel you should pay your parents the insurance payments? Why should you have it better than poor people?
In the UK there would be no problem for a poor person to be a monk. If, say, the factories close in a town and someone is on "monthly support" for three years then he can go off and be a monk with a qualm - he is not expected to pay the money back.
Why should UK poor people have a better shot at being monks than German poor people?
Fundamentally, lay Buddhist ethics in this respect are informed by secular designations of what counts as debt, per the Vinaya; that the ordination remains valid, and the preceptor suffers only a dukkata (same as if he had pulled up a weed) shows the level of importance here.
Crippling student debt is a complex social issue. It isn't a complex Vinaya issue.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
I think I can understand your point of view. I don't know about the UK or Germany, but in the Netherlands you only have to pay the student loan back if you are capable of doing so. So if you aren't making any money it really isn't a depth. So I don't see any problem ordaining in this situation. No problems with angry borrowers coming after the monk.
And I know there are monks who would see it like this as well...
Much metta
'Suppose there were a beetle, a dung-eater, full of dung, gorged with dung, with a huge pile of dung in front of him. He, because of that, would look down on other beetles: 'Yes, sirree! I am a dung-eater, full of dung, gorged with dung, with a huge pile of dung in front of me!' - SN 17.5
daverupa wrote:Fundamentally, lay Buddhist ethics in this respect are informed by secular designations of what counts as debt, per the Vinaya; that the ordination remains valid, and the preceptor suffers only a dukkata (same as if he had pulled up a weed) shows the level of importance here.
better not say the Dukkata are not important! a good monk would train in all rules. and when it comes to communial transactions may hold a stricter standard than at other times.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form. John Stuart Mill
Cittasanto wrote:better not say the Dukkata are not important!
Not once.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
Dukkata offences are basically down to a lack of care. inattentiveness to details and unfitting behaviour due to habit or heedlessness.
If one wants good training, whether or not a preceptor agrees that a student loan is debt or not is not important, but how they find out if it is debt or not is the important thing.
ones own opinion is not a guarantee it is considered debt from the vinaya point of view.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form. John Stuart Mill
You said, "I doubt a senior monk in the Theravada tradition will allow such an ordination." That's guessing what the combined opinion of all senior monks will be.
It would not be "second guessing" until you find a senior monk who says it's not a debt and I said that monk was wrong. Until then, I am just "guessing". And yes, I am guessing (why else did you ask this question on a public forum?) based on the fact that most monks I've met don't want to come even close to breaking a rule, so they interpret them strictly. I only share my opinion because you asked for it. Feel free to prove me wrong by finding a monk that will ordain you and I will salute you.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
