Is a UK student loan considered debt

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
Tsetan
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Tsetan »

I would do that in a heartbeat, but student loans, as far as I know, are not discharged with bankruptcy. I is true that I am not obligated, just by having these student loans, to actively seek employment. Also, the feds insure the lender will be repaid in this program, thus I do not feel it would be stealing if I did not pay on them as a monk. Now the feds have to get the money somewhere, but frankly, I do not feel any moral issue, personally, with them repaying the lender. The feds do not mind using my money to pay to bomb people in foreign lands, thus I'm not sure I'd mind them paying my loan so I can cultivate compassion 24/7 as a monk. I'm just thinking out loud right now... All this stuff is very arguable of course.
Tsetan
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Tsetan »

On the other hand, one's poor use of funds does not justify theft... I also feel that as long as I am obeying the rules of this student loan program, I'm ok. There's nothing saying i cannot ordain and make no money...
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Annapurna
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Annapurna »

Tsetan wrote:I would do that in a heartbeat, but student loans, as far as I know, are not discharged with bankruptcy. I is true that I am not obligated, just by having these student loans, to actively seek employment. Also, the feds insure the lender will be repaid in this program, thus I do not feel it would be stealing if I did not pay on them as a monk. Now the feds have to get the money somewhere, but frankly, I do not feel any moral issue, personally, with them repaying the lender. The feds do not mind using my money to pay to bomb people in foreign lands, thus I'm not sure I'd mind them paying my loan so I can cultivate compassion 24/7 as a monk. I'm just thinking out loud right now... All this stuff is very arguable of course.
Yes it is.

The money came from some folks.

It's the anonymity of the "givers" that makes you feel wishi washi about returning the money.
You would feel quite differently if you knew you would owe it to your neighbor, and he had told you that you can pay him back once you start earning your own money.

Right?

If you had to tell your neighbor that you are not going to pay him back, this would be much harder to do than telling an institution:

You can do what you want, but to ME, it wouldn't feel right to accept any kind of support, where I am expected to pay it back once I am able to, and then to cop out and say ha ha, I am outta here.

I know that is a hard choice of words, but this is how it appears to me.
so I can cultivate compassion 24/7 as a monk
Cultivate compassion with the givers of your loan as a start.
Tsetan
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Tsetan »

That's a fair critique. I would be surprised if I'm ever able to fully, or even partially repay the loan before 25 years passes however. I'm inclined to call the loan company and talk to them, give them my thoughts very upfront and see what they say. Paying it back is this difficult because of the interest, the total borrowed, and my income just cannot generate this kind of money, it is not realistic, especially in these times. I didn't know this when I took the loans. There's no desire to leave anyone high and dry.
I'm not willing to do anything at all suspect or quasi-ethical, so probably best I consult with the loan granter themselves, see what they tell me is ok and not ok.
I'm very interested in what others think here, this is helpful!
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Annapurna
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Annapurna »

I would not call them, I would speak eye to eye. That minimum of respect shows your sincerity and would make a better impression.
Tsetan
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Tsetan »

Hmmm that's an interesting thought- I'd much rather speak to someone face to face. I'm not sure where they are but I'll investigate. I have to talk with someone who administers this stuff and is in charge.
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Annapurna
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Annapurna »

:anjali:
Tsetan
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Tsetan »

Interestingly, "nun" and "practitioner" are listed in the USA occupational outlook handbook,under "A177 Religious workers, other" listed as an official occupation. Not sure if this is relevant to our discussion, but interesting.
miggyG
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by miggyG »

How to deal with student debt? I's simple, don't go to University. Hopefully in the future the likes of the some universities will make education free for everyone.
Mawkish1983
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Mawkish1983 »

For some people, university is an appropriate path whatever the cost.
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Alobha
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Alobha »

marcpiano wrote:Hi all,

Is a UK student loan (ie through the Student Loans Company rather than a private arrangement between an individual and a bank) considered a debt for the purposes of fulfilling the pre-requisites for ordination?

Its repayment is linked to earnings (so if you're unemployed, you don't pay it back until you gain employment) and it is automatically cleared after 25 years.

Thanks in advance!
Well. A debt is something that is given to one with the condition that one gives it back later. The debtee here is nice enough to wait until you have the means to give the money back, but still the idea that it is given back is there.

It would be blameworthy to ordain while having this kind of obligation and unknowledgable people may be inclined to think that monks use the monastery to escape their financial obligations and are thus unworthy of support and respect. Talk to the debtee about it. If it so happens that they're fine with your decision and agree that becoming a "spiritual worker" has it's very own worth too, they may give you a verbal confirmation that you're free to go?
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James the Giant
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by James the Giant »

If I knew a bhikkhu had a student loan, personally I would not consider him a properly ordained bhikkhu, despite the legal loopholes which enable him to not pay it back. It's against the "spirit" of the rule. I certainly would not respect him as much as a proper debt- and obligation-free monk.

In fact, that's what I'm doing this next twelve months, earning money to pay back my student loan. Working hard, 6 days a week, heaps of overtime, moved to a different country where the wages are better, etc.

(I know the OP may have been and gone, it was more than a year ago that he first posted. But since the thread was revived, well, I may as well chime in with my two cents.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
Mal
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Mal »

James the Giant wrote:If I knew a bhikkhu had a student loan, personally I would not consider him a properly ordained bhikkhu, despite the legal loopholes which enable him to not pay it back. It's against the "spirit" of the rule. I certainly would not respect him as much as a proper debt- and obligation-free monk.
In what way is it against the "spirit" of the rule?

The monk would only have an obligation if he earned a certain amount of money, otherwise he has no obligation.

If the student decided to ordain after, or near he end of, his studies, then I can't see any problem.

If the student planned to go to University before ordaining then that is more problematic. The student should then, perhaps, discuss his situation with all interested parties. If the student does this, and the "loan" provider decides to go ahead then, again, there is, surely, no problem.

If he was shown to, truly, be in debt could he even be a monk?
Buckwheat
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Buckwheat »

5heaps wrote:ignore your student loans, they're highly immoral.
This is a rather unwholesome sentiment.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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James the Giant
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by James the Giant »

Mal wrote: In what way is it against the "spirit" of the rule?
The monk would only have an obligation if he earned a certain amount of money, otherwise he has no obligation.
The point is that he is a debtor. He has a debt. He is a debtor and the rule is quite clear on that point:
"A debtor should not be given the Going-forth. Whoever should give it: an offense of wrong doing." — Mv.I.46.1

Whether he is obliged to pay it later, or when he reaches a certain level of income, he still has a debt and is therefore not eligible.
Mal wrote:If he was shown to, truly, be in debt could he even be a monk?
Yes, he remains an official bhikkhu. So I guess I was wrong there.
"Any bhikkhu who gives any of these applicants the Going-forth incurs a dukkaṭa. However, the applicant does count as having properly gone forth; if fully accepted he is properly accepted and need not be expelled." from the Buddhist Monastic Code http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .ch14.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mods, maybe this thread could be merged with the debts mega-thread over here? To save on people saying stuff that has already been said, as I probably just have.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=6795" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
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