Monastic Live vs Household Live

[ccook70]

Dear Friends,

I own a home situated in the wilderness, peaceful and without distraction.
Living alone, I have no family or wife to take care of.
Disabled, I received disability from the government and don't have to/cannot work.
In theory, I could practice meditation/contemplation as a solitary in the forest this way.
Would there be any major advantage to this over formally ordaining?

What did the Buddha himself consider a "hermit" or "contemplative forest-dweller?"

Thanks!

Corey

[tiltbillings]

Dear Friends,

I own a home situated in the wilderness, peaceful and without distraction.
Living alone, I have no family or wife to take care of.
Disabled, I received disability from the government and don't have to/cannot work.
In theory, I could practice meditation/contemplation as a solitary in the forest this way.
Would there be any major advantage to this over formally ordaining?

What did the Buddha himself consider a "hermit" or "contemplative forest-dweller?"

Thanks!

Corey

Ideally, you should have a good, qualified, and experienced teacher with whom you can consult -- face-to-face would be best, though phone would be good, and better than nothing, e-mail. It is way too easy on your own to get fooled by your experiences and by your wishes.

[bodom]

Dear Friends,

I own a home situated in the wilderness, peaceful and without distraction.
Living alone, I have no family or wife to take care of.
Disabled, I received disability from the government and don't have to/cannot work.
In theory, I could practice meditation/contemplation as a solitary in the forest this way.
Would there be any major advantage to this over formally ordaining?

What did the Buddha himself consider a "hermit" or "contemplative forest-dweller?"

Thanks!

Corey

Ideally, you should have a good, qualified, and experienced teacher with whom you can consult -- face-to-face would be best, though phone would be good, and better than nothing, e-mail. It is way too easy on your own to get fooled by your experiences and by your wishes.

To add to tilts advice:

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Sakyans. Now there is a Sakyan town named Sakkara. There Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, lord: admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie."[1]

"Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path.

"And how does a monk who has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, develop & pursue the noble eightfold path? There is the case where a monk develops right view dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops right resolve... right speech... right action... right livelihood... right effort... right mindfulness... right concentration dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. This is how a monk who has admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues, develops & pursues the noble eightfold path.

"And through this line of reasoning one may know how admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life: It is in dependence on me as an admirable friend that beings subject to birth have gained release from birth, that beings subject to aging have gained release from aging, that beings subject to death have gained release from death, that beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair have gained release from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. It is through this line of reasoning that one may know how admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life."

[Cormac Brown]

I own a home situated in the wilderness, peaceful and without distraction.
Living alone, I have no family or wife to take care of.
Disabled, I received disability from the government and don't have to/cannot work.
In theory, I could practice meditation/contemplation as a solitary in the forest this way.
Would there be any major advantage to this over formally ordaining?

Good advice above from tilt and bodom.

Formally ordaining would be much more advantageous for both of their reasons. Other related advantages are: Vinaya-training, not having to use money, making a very strong commitment to chastity and renunciation.

What did the Buddha himself consider a "hermit" or "contemplative forest-dweller?"

What's more important is what he considered to be a "virtuous person": someone who has perfected the path and completely abandoned greed, aversion and delusion - an arahant. The life of a bhikkhu is considered the vehicle for attaining to this state. Even the best practising laypeople in Buddhist history - the most generous, virtuous, skilled in samadhi - haven't been recorded as achieving this. Nevertheless, it's possible to go far as a layperson, but as the others suggest, admirable friendship is the most important external factor for developing the path.

If there were any major advantages to being a householder, I imagine the Buddha would have returned to being one. He didn't, and reserved the highest praise for the bhikkhu life.

See: Samaññaphala Sutta: The Fruits of the Contemplative Life
trans. Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"'Having abandoned home,
living free from society,
the sage
in villages
creates no intimacies.
Rid of sensual passions, free
from yearning,
he wouldn't engage with people
in quarrelsome debate.'"

SN 22.3, trans. Ven. Thanissaro

Which reminds me: must stop engaging with people in quarrelsome debate.

Metta,

Cormac

[ccook70]

Dear Friends in Dhamma,

Bhikku Bodhi has advised me that in my case ordination isn't necessary, since I live in the quietude of the forest- quiet, conductive to contemplation. Also I do not work- disabled - and further Ven. Bodhi has stated that my situation even has some advantages over Monastic life: As the ordained Monks must perform many ceremonial tasks, funerals, meetings, and the like, all of my time may be devoted to practice as a solitary in the forest.

Thank you all for your valuable advise.
I consider myself lucky that I can call on Ven.Bhikku Bodhi when I have a pressing question- he's been a monk for about 50 years!

...And that brings me to the subject of "Admirable Friends." Lord Gotama taught that admirable friends are "the whole of the holy life."
Lord Gotama, in a sense, is my friend. I am close to Him and He is close to me, as the Canon states:

'Monks, even if a monk should take hold of the edge of my outer garment and should walk close behind me, step for step, yet if he should be covetous, strongly attracted by pleasures of the senses, malevolent in thought, of corrupt mind and purpose, of confused recollection, inattentive and not contemplative, scatter-brained, his sense-faculties uncontrolled, then he is far from me and I am far from him.'

'Monks, if the monk should be staying even a hundred miles away, yet he is not covetous, not strongly attracted by the pleasures of the senses, not malevolent in thought, not of corrupt mind and purpose, his collection firmly set, attentive, contemplative, his thoughts be one-pointed, restrained in his sense-faculties, then he is near me and I am near him.' (Samyutta Nikaya)

-I hope everyone here can experience mental cultivation and restraint, so that we all can be close to Lord Gotama.

By Sri Rama Chandra Bharati, an Indian poet:

'I seek not thy refuge for the sake of gain,
Not fear of thee, nor for the love of fame,
Not as thou hailest from the solar race,
Not for the sake of gaining knowledge vast,
But drawn by the power of the boundless love,
And thy all-embracing peerless ken,
The vast Samsara's sea safe to cross,
I bend low, O lord, and become thy devotee.'

[tiltbillings]

Dear Friends in Dhamma,

Bhikku Bodhi has advised me that in my case ordination isn't necessary, since I live in the quietude of the forest- quiet, conductive to contemplation. Also I do not work- disabled - and further Ven. Bodhi has stated that my situation even has some advantages over Monastic life: As the ordained Monks must perform many ceremonial tasks, funerals, meetings, and the like, all of my time may be devoted to practice as a solitary in the forest.

Thank you all for your valuable advise.
I consider myself lucky that I can call on Ven.Bhikku Bodhi when I have a pressing question- he's been a monk for about 50 years!

And I am sure if he cannot answer a meditation question, for example, he help you find someone who can. Since you have Ven Bodhi's support, follow his advice. It looks really good to me.

[akashdhamma]

Hi ccook !

From what I have seen - Some lay people get very good results without ordination. If you work efficiently, fully devoted to practice - and are in contact with a good teacher who can help you navigate in an efficient manner - send you some metta and be self motivated & disciplined - then you can get extremely good results.

In your situation, I think the first fruition is very realistic and the third fruition is doable in this life. For the fourth, there is a narrow possibility but the third one is as good as the fourth (maybe even better because you get a nice vacation in the highest plane).

Even though I haven't ordained in this life, I can tell that there are several benefits of taking on the robes (under a good teacher, in an unbroken lineage) - that are unparalleled. The robes, precept, vinaya, way of life, alms round, etc have all been fabricated with only one purpose - That is hastened purification and eradication of avijja, final deliverance. They offer much opportunity & protection that makes the way simpler and easier. So, if you have the potential to reach arahatship in this life, then becoming a Bhikkhu will only maximize that probability while practicing as a forest dwelling lay man will not completely eradicate your chances (but living in a big city probably will).

So keeping all things in mind, this is the good way. I heard from someone who made very good progress living in the forest, a simple life, with few needs - very little human interaction. Try to keep developing the practice and be self motivated, curious and cultivate a strong drive for right effort.

All the best !

Metta

[ccook70]

Thank You All for your helpful responses!