Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

visalemc said: You can see how dirty they are by the way in which they have injected conventional laws and prejudices into their interpretation of the Dhamma. If these are the representatives of "pure" Buddhism, then Buddhism is really in trouble. Big trouble.

How dare you refer to great bhikkhus in this scurrilous way. I see this is your first post ~ did you join just to do this and dis Thai Buddhism as well? A little more knowledge may have been of assistance to you. The majority of the Forest Sangha abbots do not oppose, but rather support, ordination of women.

BTW, most of the Abbots and Senior Monks of the ForestSangha live in other countries and are not Thai but european e.g. Ajahn Sumedho from Amaravati Monastery - UK, Ajahn Amaro and Ajahn Pasanno from Abhayagiri Monastery - U.S.A., Ajahn Thiradhammo from Bodhinyanarama Monastery - New Zealand, Ajahn Sucitto from Cittaviveka Monastery - UK, Ajahn Khemasiri from Dhammapala Kloster - Switzerland, Ajahn Khemadhammo from Forest Hermitage - UK, Ajahn Jutindharo of Hartridge Monastery - UK, Ajahn Chandapalo of Santacittarama Monastero - Italy, Ajahn Punnadhammo - Arrow River Centre - Canada, Ven. Bhikkhu Sona - Birken Forest Monastery, Canada, Ajahn Dhammasiha - Dhammagiri Hermitage - Australia, Ajahn Viradhammo and Ajahn Kusalo - Tisarana Monastery, Canada.

karuna,
Chris

I don't think the actions of a small group of Bhikkhu's are indicative of the majority of Thai Bhikkhus, let alone Thai Buddhism, let alone Thai people. There are many elements that make up a whole, to see a very small part of the whole picture and claim it as the whole, is a very sloppy, and hurtful assumption. Not only does it hurt you, it hurts others.

I hope this is a cause for some introspection, my good friend.

Jack

"Majority"? Majority. That's all I hear is "most of the monks" or "majority of them". In the practical sense, it might as well be none. Here "majority" is meaningless because if this supposed majority exists, why has it allowed this minority represent them in such an unskillful manner? Why has this been allowed to exist for so long? This "most" is also responsible. As I've stated, wisdom is the main factor. How is the the wisdom of the Buddhas consistent with the intolerance and mistreatment of another because of sex or race? It's obvious that these senior monks lost face because they couldn't control one of their own. I say , deal with it. The Bhikkuni ordination is the essential issue here. If this "pure" Thai tradition can't separate, can't distinguish the twigs and leaves from the heartwood, it will die off through irrelevance. Let's not forget folks that Buddhism died off in the very country of its birth, how much more possible is it for this to occur in another?

As for these western monks, they too are complicit. Most have hidden behind the excuse of tradition and have deflected the issue by focusing on the "not the right way to have gone about it" perspective. Fine, it was unskillful to go about it that way, yet what about bhikkuni ordination? I've been waiting and still waiting for some of these Western Ajahns (Sumedho, Jayasaro) for whom I have profound respect and much gratitude to say how the mistreatment of women is conventional, cultural and not something which exists a priori in or flows naturally from Buddhism. As it is, I can only looked to the Dhamma and the Buddha in order to improve myself if the Sangha doesn't have the courage to do what should be done.

I am not sorry. Bhikkus can't be considered great if they let convention or tradition justify injustice and intolerance.

cooran wrote: How dare you refer to great bhikkhus in this scurrilous way. I see this is your first post ~ did you join just to do this and dis Thai Buddhism as well? A little more knowledge may have been of assistance to you. The majority of the Forest Sangha abbots do not oppose, but rather support, ordination of women.

BTW, most of the Abbots and Senior Monks of the ForestSangha live in other countries and are not Thai but european e.g. Ajahn Sumedho from Amaravati Monastery - UK, Ajahn Amaro and Ajahn Pasanno from Abhayagiri Monastery - U.S.A., Ajahn Thiradhammo from Bodhinyanarama Monastery - New Zealand, Ajahn Sucitto from Cittaviveka Monastery - UK, Ajahn Khemasiri from Dhammapala Kloster - Switzerland, Ajahn Khemadhammo from Forest Hermitage - UK, Ajahn Jutindharo of Hartridge Monastery - UK, Ajahn Chandapalo of Santacittarama Monastero - Italy, Ajahn Punnadhammo - Arrow River Centre - Canada, Ven. Bhikkhu Sona - Birken Forest Monastery, Canada, Ajahn Dhammasiha - Dhammagiri Hermitage - Australia, Ajahn Viradhammo and Ajahn Kusalo - Tisarana Monastery, Canada.

karuna,
Chris

In my opinion, this matter should be left to the Sangha to discuss and resolve, especially the Thai Forest Sangha. Those who are not well informed about the Vinaya are very likely to make akusala kamma in discussing this topic.

Those monks who explain not Vinaya as not Vinaya, Vinaya as Vinaya, what was not said by the Tathägata as not said by him, what was said by him as said by him, what was not practised by him as not practised by him, what was practised by him as practised by him, what was not laid down by him as not laid down by him, what was laid down by him as laid down by him, work for the welfare, happiness, and benefit of gods and men. They make much merit and preserve the true Dhamma. (A.i.140-149)

However, the converse is also true — those who explain what is not Vinaya as Vinaya, make much demerit and cause the disappearance of the true Dhamma.

If you do not know what is Vinaya or what is not Vinaya, do not express any opinion about what is or what is not in accordance with the Vinaya. Do not rely on hearsay, do not fall prey to prejudice (against prohibiting bhikkhuni ordination), or bias (in favour of it).

Greetings venerable sir,

Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!



Metta,
Retro.

Not all women who decide to become Buddhist nuns want to be bhikkhunis.
Here is a video with Sister (Saylay) Visuddhi from Malaysia interviewed by Bhante Anandajoti at Vivekavana in January 2010. She talks about life as a 10 precept nun and the challenges of it:

http://www.archive.org/details/SisterVi ... ewJan.2010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


And here is a recent reflection on the cultural differences between England and Thailand regarding this status of women by Ajahn Sucitto:

http://sucitto.blogspot.com/2010/03/kno ... u-are.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gavesako wrote:Not all women who decide to become Buddhist nuns want to be bhikkhunis.
Here is a video with Sister (Saylay) Visuddhi from Malaysia interviewed by Bhante Anandajoti at Vivekavana in January 2010. She talks about life as a 10 precept nun and the challenges of it:

http://www.archive.org/details/SisterVi ... ewJan.2010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


And here is a recent reflection on the cultural differences between England and Thailand regarding this status of women by Ajahn Sucitto:

http://sucitto.blogspot.com/2010/03/kno ... u-are.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dear Bhante Gavesako,

thank you for these links.

deleted.

I saw this news recently. How wonderful! I'd love to be in the company of these great bhikkhuni's for even a week of practice. Hopefully their community will continue to grow and flourish.

visalemc wrote:"Majority"? Majority. That's all I hear is "most of the monks" or "majority of them". In the practical sense, it might as well be none. Here "majority" is meaningless because if this supposed majority exists, why has it allowed this minority represent them in such an unskillful manner? Why has this been allowed to exist for so long? This "most" is also responsible. As I've stated, wisdom is the main factor. How is the the wisdom of the Buddhas consistent with the intolerance and mistreatment of another because of sex or race? It's obvious that these senior monks lost face because they couldn't control one of their own. I say , deal with it. The Bhikkuni ordination is the essential issue here. If this "pure" Thai tradition can't separate, can't distinguish the twigs and leaves from the heartwood, it will die off through irrelevance. Let's not forget folks that Buddhism died off in the very country of its birth, how much more possible is it for this to occur in another?

I always find it funny when people talk about this small group of well-practiced monks as though they represent Thailand. There are Bhikkhunis all over Thailand, sir. One of my students just ordained as a Bhikkhuni and is now in Wat Rampoeng in Chiang Mai, I think. There's three Bhikkhuni monasteries in Chiang Main alone. Wat Pa Nanachat is not Thai Buddhism. They just happen to be a small group that has gained International acclaim, and rightly so. They are still a small minority and what the Wat Nong Pa Bong sangha says is not really indicative of what the rest of the country is doing. Heck, what the Sangharaja says is not really indicative of what the rest of the country is doing.

yuttadhammo wrote:

visalemc wrote:"Majority"? Majority. That's all I hear is "most of the monks" or "majority of them". In the practical sense, it might as well be none. Here "majority" is meaningless because if this supposed majority exists, why has it allowed this minority represent them in such an unskillful manner? Why has this been allowed to exist for so long? This "most" is also responsible. As I've stated, wisdom is the main factor. How is the the wisdom of the Buddhas consistent with the intolerance and mistreatment of another because of sex or race? It's obvious that these senior monks lost face because they couldn't control one of their own. I say , deal with it. The Bhikkuni ordination is the essential issue here. If this "pure" Thai tradition can't separate, can't distinguish the twigs and leaves from the heartwood, it will die off through irrelevance. Let's not forget folks that Buddhism died off in the very country of its birth, how much more possible is it for this to occur in another?

I always find it funny when people talk about this small group of well-practiced monks as though they represent Thailand. There are Bhikkhunis all over Thailand, sir. One of my students just ordained as a Bhikkhuni and is now in Wat Rampoeng in Chiang Mai, I think. There's three Bhikkhuni monasteries in Chiang Main alone. Wat Pa Nanachat is not Thai Buddhism. They just happen to be a small group that has gained International acclaim, and rightly so. They are still a small minority and what the Wat Nong Pa Bong sangha says is not really indicative of what the rest of the country is doing. Heck, what the Sangharaja says is not really indicative of what the rest of the country is doing.

Thanks for this info Bhante

now Srilanka have 3.000 dasasilamatas (nun who take 10 precepts), and have 500 more bhikkhunis and samaneris.
i think this is good for who love to get ordination can come to Srilanka.

mettacittena.

Most of this discussion presents a picture of some Buddhist version of the highly intense politics in the Catholic church, where scripture can be used to justify self-assertion and vindictiveness. Almost no one seems concerned for the well-being and future of the women involved or other women who might be involved more deeply with Buddhism. "We have our laws, we have our procedures, we have our traditions." What rubbish if they are all used to grind down women not to help them. Compassion has vanished.

--Allan Adasiak
(And look: I am not hiding behind some pseudonym. That is my real name.)

Greetings,

Dennis Sheppard, President of BSWA, referred to fallout from the Bhikkhuni ordination in his report to the Annual General Meeting on 12th March 2011. A short video, with text, is available on YouTube... http://www.youtube.com/user/BuddhistSoc ... RAGjvj4xJA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Metta,
Retro.

Now that the Bhikkhunis are back, there is much to be done and much have been benefited from Them