Is it right to get ordained and let your cats behind.

[Bakmoon]

If you owned a dog then perhaps it would be a bit more of an issue, but cats are extremely independent animals compared to other domesticated pets. I'd suggest giving it a test run to see how they do with your ex, and then you'd know for sure how it would turn out.

[Dhammanando]

how do you know cats don't love their owner?

It's an Occam's razor thing and as such is a matter of probability rather than certain knowledge. The most parsimonious ethological explanation for all the characteristic actions of domestic cats is in terms of habituation, sensitization, classical and operant conditioning, etc. And so when some sentimental anthropomorphising cat-owner insists on attributing such and such behaviour of his pet to "love", he is guilty of multiplying entities beyond necessity

[murphythecat8]

Hey Murphy,

A lot of people have been spinning your situation as you being "attached" to your cats and how such an attachment is backwards considering you want to follow a path of non-attachment.

For what it is worth I think that reasoning can be fairly flipped on its head.

Abandoning your cats so you can become a monk RIGHT NOW can also be seen as an attachment. If you accept Buddhist beliefs there is no problem with waiting. Many monks only get 3-4 hours of meditation a day when they are not on a retreat schedule. As you pointed out, it is possible for a lay person with few attachments to do that. Whatever you don't achieve in this life, you can achieve in the next, samsara isn't going anywhere.

The question can also be asked is it really consistent to start a spiritual path with selfish acts and learning to smother compassion and caring?

You are fortunate in that you are starting off your spiritual path with a heart.

I've seen a number of retreat centrers and monasteries with cats. Maybe you could take your cats with you?

Good Luck

I couldnt agree more and its exactly how I think. is it right to leave with selfish reasons and create suffering in me leaving. Also, maybe I should talk about my mother which I also feel sad for her to leave her alone.

as a Bodhisattva, we should make everything in our power to reduce suffering when we can. well this situation is a perfect example and why im troubled. I've been a buddhist for 6 years and practiced morality and the precepts and my practice is well on the way: my heart have been very open recently and I see everything with the dharma eye it seems. I'm ready to take my practice further now , but I feel that maybe, for the sake of my cat, I could indeed find a way to meditate easily 4-5 hours each day, while still being a lay person.

how do you know cats don't love their owner?

It's an Occam's razor thing and as such is a matter of probability rather than certain knowledge. The most parsimonious ethological explanation for all the characteristic actions of domestic cats is in terms of habituation, sensitization, classical and operant conditioning, etc. And so when some sentimental anthropomorphising cat-owner insists on attributing such and such behaviour of his pet to "love", he is guilty of multiplying entities beyond necessity

I understand your position and take it in consideration. Id have some comment though.
we can say that you de-anthropomorphize cats without being sure. What I know is that all being suffers and that we must try to reduce as much as possible suffering in every being. that statement that ''characteristic actions of domestic cats is in terms of habituation, sensitization, classical and operant conditioning'' would be enough for you to leave? what if I feel cats are very sensible. what if they could feel. wouldnt it be better for them if I wait, practice as a lay person? Wouldnt it be more compassionate? because if I leave with the argument that cas cannot feel like we human do, and we are wrong, maybe a better solution would be best?

We cannot know and I trust my instinct and heart, and I know they feel a whole lot and understand much more that we might think. we are animals just like them and im not sure where there understanding of reality is so different then ours.

sorry for my spelling, im french !

Plenty of lost pet stories on the internet about cats traveling hundreds of miles to be reunited with their owners. There also stories about cats, like dogs, smelling illness and waking owners up to save their lives. People making iron clad statements about what cats don't feel may not be completely right.

Or iron clad statements about what they do supposedly feel.
There are other explanations than "love" possible for these anecdotes. We could also count cases where animals do fine without their owners and find replacement.

No offense intended really. Animals feeling love or not feeling love for their owners; It's two sides of the same coin really. It's all interpretation. I doubt an attachment to views is going to be helpful in this situation.

Even if one would insist that cats feel love in a way comparable to human love,The thing is that animals (just like humans) can adapt to new circumstances - and they can very often do this quicker and easier than their owners may believe they would. That's why I suggest doing a test-run so that murphy can see for himself. If the cats adjust to the new circumstances within a month the matter is settled and murphy can go without worrying about the cats. If they should show worrying behavior for longer than that he can take them back and live with them until he or they die while continuing with a meditation schedule as a layperson.

this is what I will do, I will go for a 10 days retreat and see how they react. I doubt that they will appreciate, but of course, like everyone, they can adapt to new situation just like us. it doesnt mean that they wont suffer from losing me.

thanks everyone!

[Anders]

I think there are humans in your life with a far greater capacity for feeling loss than your cats who might be more poignant to consider. They may have the capacity to rationalise the why of it, but I doubt that will make their sense of loss less than your cats.

It just sounds a bit like your perspective is a bit askew here.

The Buddha left behind a wife, son and family. They were taken care of, but I am sure they felt the loss.

The point being - You will leave people behind, cats, humans, whatever. For some this is acceptable. You have to decide for yourself if you're ok with it. But singling out your cats when you are leaving behind family and girlfriend sounds like a case of cognitive dissonance.

[murphythecat8]

The point being - You will leave people behind, cats, humans, whatever. For some this is acceptable. You have to decide for yourself if you're ok with it. But singling out your cats when you are leaving behind family and girlfriend sounds like a case of cognitive dissonance.

thats the main question. when is it okay and when is it not?
My girlfriend is my ex-girlfriend. Im a buddhist and make choice in my life that doesnt and cant please a non-buddhist: we are both in agreement.
But my mom and my family is another matter and finally my cats. I really dont know what is right in this situation.
I'll do my first 10 days retreat and see how I feel. I begin my retreat the 15 of april.

thanks everyone

[Ben]

But my mom and my family is another matter and finally my cats. I really dont know what is right in this situation.

You are not ready to seek ordination.
I recommend getting a bit of life experience behind you while living as an upasaka.
All the best,
Ben

[murphythecat8]

But my mom and my family is another matter and finally my cats. I really dont know what is right in this situation.

You are not ready to seek ordination.
I recommend getting a bit of life experience behind you while living as an upasaka.
All the best,
Ben

I guess ill see how feel after my first retreat.
thanks!

[Ben]

I guess ill see how feel after my first retreat.
thanks!

Good luck with your first retreat.
Keep in mind that a retreat is not a simulacrum for life as a monk. After your first retreat talk to a couple of monks, anagarikas, nuns and previously ordained people - even some here, about their experience.

[Sati1]

It is almost inevitable that someone will get hurt if you go forth. Ratthapala's parents were upset when he went forth and his dad remained upset for many years (MN 82). I doubt that the Buddha's wife and parents were upset when he left the home life in search of liberation. If your goal is to attain liberation, then I would definitely leave the cats with your ex-girlfriend. The negative kamma that might come from leaving them is minimal compared with the benefits you would get from going forth. Instead of wondering whether or not to leave the cats for monkhood, I would reflect on how to do it best so that they are hurt as little as possible and you can keep your conscience clean. The fact that you have someone who is willing to take care of them is already a huge boon.

It might also be worth reflecting on the origin of the concern "they will be devastated" - is it really compassion, or might there be an underlying clinging on your part?

With metta,

[murphythecat8]

It is almost inevitable that someone will get hurt if you go forth. Ratthapala's parents were upset when he went forth and his dad remained upset for many years (MN 82). I doubt that the Buddha's wife and parents were upset when he left the home life in search of liberation. If your goal is to attain liberation, then I would definitely leave the cats with your ex-girlfriend. The negative kamma that might come from leaving them is minimal compared with the benefits you would get from going forth. Instead of wondering whether or not to leave the cats for monkhood, I would reflect on how to do it best so that they are hurt as little as possible and you can keep your conscience clean. The fact that you have someone who is willing to take care of them is already a huge boon.

It might also be worth reflecting on the origin of the concern "they will be devastated" - is it really compassion, or might there be an underlying clinging on your part?

With metta,

I'm definitely attached to them, but I could let them go. I'm sad for them though as we are always together. I wake up, they come right away, they follow me everywhere I go all the time. im there best friend, their lover for them. how much will they forget about me is something very unclear for me. I'm mostly sad for them as I dont want to hurt them, I dont want to hurt beings who cannot understand my process. my mom, I can call her, she knows what im doing. my cats, they wont understand nothing.

I think its both compassion and attachment. but compassion is closely related to attachment. attachment of a ideal and knowing people suffers without knowing what to do. I want them to not suffer, at least, not because of me.
I guess I'll have to do some retreat to understand more.
thanks everyone!
will report after my first retreat.

[Sati1]

All the best, and good luck! Just the fact that you are investigating this question and exploring your motivations is already a good start. In time, you will know what to do.

With metta,