Taking on lay life

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
daverupa
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Re: Taking on lay life

Post by daverupa »

Alex123 wrote:But may a lay person eat once per day, but at evening? That is healthier to eat at night, and easier to go to sleep when full, rather then hungry.
I think it's a matter of concern for carrying capacity plus the motive for one's food use overall, rather than time of day, that makes the effort fall under integrous livelihood.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
SarathW
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Re: Taking on lay life

Post by SarathW »

There is a Sutta about a lay person trying to live like a monk and monk is trying to live like a lay person.
Both of them miss the enjoyment of both life (lay life and monks life).
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
daverupa
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Re: Taking on lay life

Post by daverupa »

Some of what was relevant in Iron Age India vis-a-vis sociological constructs for renunciate-monastic endeavors may, in fact, no longer be relevant.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Alex123
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Re: Taking on lay life

Post by Alex123 »

daverupa wrote:Some of what was relevant in Iron Age India vis-a-vis sociological constructs for renunciate-monastic endeavors may, in fact, no longer be relevant.
Can you elaborate, please?

Today it seems there is much more distractions than in older times. We have computer, internet, tv, fleshy magazines in the store. It is hard to shop without hearing music, or seeing provocative advertising. At your job, you are expected to be a team-member and engage in minor akusala (small talk).

In the lay world you need to be driven, goal-oriented and passionate... This is totally against Dhamma where you let go, renounce, and develop dispassion.
SarathW
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Re: Taking on lay life

Post by SarathW »

Hi Alex
Good point.
The problem is modern monks are subject to same disturbance like a lay person.
I think Broken Buddha is all about this problem.
What is the solution?
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Alex123
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Re: Taking on lay life

Post by Alex123 »

In theory, monks today can have fewer distractions than lay people.

It would be awesome to be in a monastery where one could meditate all day long and where the #1 problem is boredom. But this utopian ideal.
daverupa
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Re: Taking on lay life

Post by daverupa »

Alex123 wrote:Today it seems there is much more distractions than in older times...
There are different and perhaps more various distractions, but honestly, papanca back then was just as ridiculous as now, and so what if today there are more varieties of it, or it comes in more colors? It's all stuff to reign in with mindfulness, the senses are yet to be guarded, and all of this can happen in a modern setting.
In the lay world you need to be driven, goal-oriented and passionate...
Well, I suppose this word "need" should be unpacked in each case. What is the role of necessity & pre-existing obligation, and what is the role of habit & reticence & inertia, or fear & worry, etc.?

Ancient strictures define a certain approach to contemporary living, but Buddhist monasticism - the interface of integrous livelihood with contemporary milieux - has a different interface these days, moreso than ever before. There are challenges as well as luxuries and easements, and I think it's useful to regard all this as an ongoing aspect of the eightfold path, an effort to embody the Dhamma as one has come to know it.

Bemoaning the lack of an ideal situation can go on for a long time...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Mkoll
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Re: Taking on lay life

Post by Mkoll »

daverupa wrote:Bemoaning the lack of an ideal situation can go on for a long time...
:thumbsup:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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martinfrank
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Re: Taking on lay life

Post by martinfrank »

Alex123 wrote:In theory, monks today can have fewer distractions than lay people.

It would be awesome to be in a monastery where one could meditate all day long and where the #1 problem is boredom. But this utopian ideal.
Did you read Ajahn Lee's Autobiography? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/leeauto.pdf Ajahn Lee too had to be smart to find time for undisturbed practice. Since his time things didn't change. The caves and cemeteries where he meditated are still there. (But many of the forests disappeared.)

In a place like Suññataram Forest monastery you would probably have more time to meditate than you wished for. http://www.dhammathai.org/e/meditation/page15.php It is far from the next city, difficult to find, and it is literally in the forest. You need a four-wheel drive car to get there. The next village is not much more than a bus stop and a military check point.

Finally, keep in mind that bhikkhus who are meditating in a cave or a cemetery or a kuti in the jungle are not on Dhamma Wheel...
The Noble Eightfold Path: Proposed to all, imposed on none.
lotus flower
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Re: Taking on lay life

Post by lotus flower »

Alex123 wrote:
daverupa wrote:Some of what was relevant in Iron Age India vis-a-vis sociological constructs for renunciate-monastic endeavors may, in fact, no longer be relevant.
Can you elaborate, please?

Today it seems there is much more distractions than in older times. We have computer, internet, tv, fleshy magazines in the store. It is hard to shop without hearing music, or seeing provocative advertising. At your job, you are expected to be a team-member and engage in minor akusala (small talk).

In the lay world you need to be driven, goal-oriented and passionate... This is totally against Dhamma where you let go, renounce, and develop dispassion.
it is why i don't give a lot attention to persons who doesn't follow Dhamma, if they talk to me i almost just answer to them and no more. and when i hear music in shop or hear persons talk a lot or doing wrong or if i see they are doing any sensual pleasure, or talking about sensual pleasures, or if i see a provocative advertising i just think they are fools...may they start to practice the Dhamma soon, and attain Nibbana soon.
We found the teaching of the Buddha. Be grateful for it... We can meditate... Be grateful for it... We know that this universe is the samsara. Be grateful for it... We have THE CHANCE TO ATTAIN NIBBANA. Be grateful for it... :buddha1: :buddha2:
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Kasina
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Re: Taking on lay life

Post by Kasina »

Alex123 wrote:At your job, you are expected to be a team-member and engage in minor akusala (small talk).
Might not be your cup of tea, but with many skilled trades it's usually just you working on something, maybe with a few more people (depending on what you're doing). That's what I plan on doing myself.
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

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Mkoll
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Re: Taking on lay life

Post by Mkoll »

Kasina wrote:
Alex123 wrote:At your job, you are expected to be a team-member and engage in minor akusala (small talk).
Might not be your cup of tea, but with many skilled trades it's usually just you working on something, maybe with a few more people (depending on what you're doing). That's what I plan on doing myself.
You still must be a team player. No matter what job you have, you'll have customers, employees, and/or bosses.

But I don't think that all small talk is akusala. We hear often in the suttas about how "cordial talk" is often exchanged between the Buddha (or his disciples) and people who've come to see him/them. We hear how sick people are asked how they are doing and whether they're getting better or worse. I don't think this is akusala, though it could be called "small talk."
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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