How not to disrobe as a monastic (experiences & tipps)

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Sokehi
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How not to disrobe as a monastic (experiences & tipps)

Post by Sokehi »

I was stressing the search engine on site quite a bit but couldn't find a thread dedicated for the obstacles that might appear being a monk/nun and how to overcome them (or other skillfull means to build up a good and positive mindset).

In the past week I stumbled upon some videos on youtube that I'd like to post here for starters:

http://youtu.be/ittQd5zk0ok (this one's by ven. Yuttadhammo Bhikkhu. Title is "How to ordain as a monk", but he offers some good reflections on fault-finding and such a like that I found inspiring)

http://youtu.be/032yw3-I9io (this one's by ven. Ajahn Achalo. On the video two talks are combined, but especially the first one he is admitting to have thought about disrobing a lot and how he overcame such thoughts)

I hope you find this helpful - might you be thinking about ordaining or maybe even if you are a monastic struggling - and hope for more helpful hints, tips, videos or personal experiences for the benefit of the monastics or the ones who'll ordain in the future. Metta :anjali:

Note: Please respect the shared experiences by (Ex-)Monastics. This thread is purely aimed to assist those who are in need of advice with regards to the renunciant lifestyle of the Bhikkhu/Bhikkhuni. Please be careful not to obscure the kind and open reflections of the Sangha by turning this thread into an example of ill mannered discussions and arguments :anjali:
Last edited by Sokehi on Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

https://www.youtube.com/user/Repeataarrr
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yureee123
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Re: How not to disrobe as a monastic (experiences & tipps)

Post by yureee123 »

Nice thread! :)

Once i read Ajahn Jayasaro saying that the presence (and afterwards the memore) of Ajahn Chah was a source of inspiration that helped to keep him in the path.

Here a piece of his interview:

"When you become a monk, you go through periods of feeling very positive and you can also go through periods where you feel discouraged and you feel very unhappy. I think if you look closely at what sustains you when you feel down, it’s not so much the wise teachings and reflections as much as the faith that what you’re doing is really meaningful, that the path of practice does lead to Nibbana. I’ve never had any disrobing doubts since I became a monk. Other monks who have understood or studied the teachings more than I have disrobed. It didn’t help them. But because I had the presence of Ajahn Chah, and afterwards the memory of Ajahn Chah, it seemed to me there’s no alternative, there’s nothing else that makes sense except to be a monk and to follow this path." - Ajahn Jayasaro

Here the link to the full interview:
http://www.amaravati.org/teachings/article/aj_jayasaro
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Sokehi
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Re: How not to disrobe as a monastic (experiences & tipps)

Post by Sokehi »

Yureee, thank you for your contribution, I'm reading it right now :anjali:
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

https://www.youtube.com/user/Repeataarrr
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Sokehi
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Re: How not to disrobe as a monastic (experiences & tipps)

Post by Sokehi »

I'd like to ask the venerable Monastics here if they'd like to share their experiences if they'd like to let me and others know. Since I'm about to leave the housholders life soonish and experienced troublesome dark hours in the past it could be of a huge benefit! :anjali:
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

https://www.youtube.com/user/Repeataarrr
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Re: How not to disrobe as a monastic (experiences & tipps)

Post by DM Hong Yang »

I would like to affirm that for monastics who are in robes that they remain in robes for their lifetime is due to their foundation training. It's due to their trust and certainty of their Vinaya precepts that they remain in robes; the foundation is given by their training masters and in their pre-ordination training, their inspirations gain from good lessons in their monastic life and seeing how senior members deal with their lives firsthand, also by finding good Sangha to learn from, and continuing to encounter Sangha who are living in same certainty in robes.

I see Western monks and nuns disrobing on Facebook or hear stories from other Sangha how some shamed their robes and communities and thus were expelled. I hear from many who are dissatisfied while claiming they are in robes (or at least part time). Those that are dissatisfied for any reason should disrobe. Often times is faulty intentions or knee-jerk reactions that make for unstable minds and intention in being robed in the first place.

I live in certainty, even in my current solitude knowing I do so as my ancestors have done. I'm engaged in worthy daily translations of Buddha dharma from Chinese to English. I am supported so I can continue for some time. I keep in contact with my seniors for Vinaya reasons and solid advice. I don't deviate from my path, nor do I have ambitions like my many Western peers do (concerning themselves with building communities, expanding to temples and larger bigger better everything). If you ascribe to a monastic life of fame, fortunes, idealism regarding people in robes or in community then you will be shortly be not satisfied with reality or what you think you see around you.

My best advice came from a Malay Theravada bhikshu who also trained in Mahayana in Taiwan. He said repeatedly: The same conditions that are in society now are in the monastery walls, I accepted his words spoken to support me before I entered into my chosen temple and was accepted, then I was never too judgmental, a little more tolerant and alot more sure of myself in robes. This year is my 10th rains, I am so happy. So very happy.
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Re: How not to disrobe as a monastic (experiences & tipps)

Post by Sokehi »

DM Hong Yang wrote: The same conditions that are in society now are in the monastery walls, I accepted his words spoken to support me before I entered into my chosen temple and was accepted, then I was never too judgmental, a little more tolerant and alot more sure of myself in robes. This year is my 10th rains, I am so happy. So very happy.
This is wonderful, I feel mudita by reading your words :anjali:

And it is a very good advice, not to expect too much from monasteries and their incumbents these days - or that irritations on a social basis stop by entering a sangha.
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

https://www.youtube.com/user/Repeataarrr
Aki
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Re: How not to disrobe as a monastic (experiences & tipps)

Post by Aki »

Sokehi wrote:How not to disrobe as a monastic (experiences & tipps)
As per your request http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 33#p294847.

As I wrote in the introduction section I never had a disrobing thought but I saw many such incidents. Becoming a monk is like a new birth, when some people fail in lay life they commit suicide. Therefore, disrobing is suicide in monk life. In both cases suicide isn't the solution, it's an escape from a valuable opportunity.

Why I never had that thought? The simple answer is my dedication to meditation and Dhamma. Below is a bit detailed version.

1) I kept my faith only on Buddha and his words. I treated my heart as the Buddha's dwelling place, where my only true kalyanamitta lives; My only true inspiration lives.

2) Before leaving home to become a monk, I contemplated about the possible difficulties I might face as a meditative monk and I was very clear that no difficulty is greater than the greatness of the spiritual goal (Nibbana). What ever problem arises, all are mundane mileposts that one will pass towards a supramundane goal, letting a milepost stopping you from reaching the destination is noting short of a derision. Learn from the milepost but don't be bogged down near it, just move forward.

3) I kept my monk life as simple as possible; Kept proper Vinaya and sense restrain. Didn't try to create and spread a new "method". I have no students; No monasteries; No rich supporters and liabilities to them. I don't use money, and just go to the village to collect alms daily. Complex life style creates much friction with the world. I kept meditation as my only goal and lifeline.

4) I was very careful about my friends no matter how high rank or renowned they are as monks. If I find them dwelling in adhamma or in a lax life or engaged in mundane activities I just move away from them without starting conflicts or quarrels. Not creating conflict while not surrendering to adamma is very important when living with many. That's why I live in a forest away from monasteries.

5) A monk must be quick in identifying his weaknesses/hindrances and antidotes to them, if aversion is prominent seeing faults might lead to creating conflict. Nothing wrong with seeing faults as well as good, one can learn from both while rejoicing the good but if you try to argue with the people who create problems sometimes if they are the majority/powerful your monk life can become very unpleasant no matter how correct you are. Your task is not to correct the world but to get your self out of it forever. However, lust is the main reason for most of the disrobals and Suttas are full of helpful instructions. Actually, Buddha's words has all the necessary tools needed for the journey towards Nibbana, but only a few use them without cutting their hands!

Also, keep in mind "one step at a time" and "one who goes slow, goes far!" Most western monks are gung-ho meditators (no offence) who look for instant Nibbana.
I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand. If you're a troll :rolleye:, find someone else please :guns:, I'm an IBM (Innocent Buddhist Monk) for 40+ years.
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Re: How not to disrobe as a monastic (experiences & tipps)

Post by Sea Turtle »

Thank you very much, Bhante, for your wisdom and your inspiration.

Kind wishes,
Helena
:anjali:
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Sokehi
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Re: How not to disrobe as a monastic (experiences & tipps)

Post by Sokehi »

Dear Bhante, my anumodana for your detailed advices and reflections. Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu. :anjali:
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

https://www.youtube.com/user/Repeataarrr
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Re: How not to disrobe as a monastic (experiences & tipps)

Post by Viscid »

Fantastic replies from the Ven. Hong Yang (who is collecting donations for basic necessities and could use your help) and Ven. 'Aki'.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Re: How not to disrobe as a monastic (experiences & tipps)

Post by ArkA »

DM Hong Yang wrote:...
Aki wrote:...
Very good pragmatic advices.

Once I asked an old monk for a simple advice that I can treasure for life. He said, “Buddha taught us all that needed for Nibbana, never stray away from his words.” In number of cases where I managed to look properly in to the reasons behind disrobing, it wasn't difficult to point out one or many where the ex-monk strayed from Buddha's words.
I'll restart my yearlong meditation retreat on 15th June 2014, hence will not be here.

"Bhikkhus, there are these three things that shine when exposed, not when concealed. What three? (1) The moon. (2) The sun. (3) The Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata."
- Anguttara Nikaya, 3.131, Paticchanna Sutta

"Silence is the language of God; all else is poor translation."
– Rumi

Introduction: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=20572
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Sokehi
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Re: How not to disrobe as a monastic (experiences & tipps)

Post by Sokehi »

Anumodana ArkA for your contribution! :anjali:
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

https://www.youtube.com/user/Repeataarrr
Aki
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Re: How not to disrobe as a monastic (experiences & tipps)

Post by Aki »

Dear Helena, Sokehi, Viscid, ArkA,

Thank you. Good that you found it inspiring and useful.

Kind wishes,
Akiñcana
I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand. If you're a troll :rolleye:, find someone else please :guns:, I'm an IBM (Innocent Buddhist Monk) for 40+ years.
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Re: How not to disrobe as a monastic (experiences & tipps)

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara »

As someone who is about to head to the monastery and move down the path of renunciation soon, This kind of thread is very important and I thank you both Venerables for sharing your valuable experience. It is so rare to find a place where you are able to interact with monastics over the internet, especially for those of us without a sangha in decent driving distance.
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Re: How not to disrobe as a monastic (experiences & tipps)

Post by Sokehi »

Jayantha-NJ wrote:As someone who is about to head to the monastery and move down the path of renunciation soon, This kind of thread is very important and I thank you both Venerables for sharing your valuable experience. It is so rare to find a place where you are able to interact with monastics over the internet, especially for those of us without a sangha in decent driving distance.
Yes indeed. I'm happy for the many kind contributors. A lot of advices to remember and practice.
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

https://www.youtube.com/user/Repeataarrr
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