Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a part

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
SarathW
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Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a part

Postby SarathW » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:46 pm

Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a particular tradition?

This is just a hypothetical question raised based on various issues due to 227 Vinaya rules.
Is it possible to take 9 precepts (handling money is taken away) without a preceptor or teacher and become a monk myself?
This question also raised based on that modern monks do not follow the 227 Vinaya rules according to what they promised when they ordained.
:shrug:

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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby Mkoll » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:13 pm

Dear Sarath,

I don't think so because the definition of monk is "a man who is a member of a brotherhood living in a monastery and devoted to a discipline prescribed by his order." That discipline must necessarily be from some tradition or another.

You could become a homeless beggar who is a disciple of Gotama the Buddha. I wouldn't wear robes though. :tongue:

:anjali:
Peace,
James

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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby Ben » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:21 pm

Hypothetically, you could follow the eight precepts scrupulously and devote much of your time to Dhamma practice and study.
Kind regards,
Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby jungblood » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:41 pm

I need a teacher's support to make progress in understanding the Dhamma.... and that's just a lay practitioner... if I tried to go solo, and full-time, I expect things would get pretty wacky! But then that's just me - I've got a LOT of 'ancient twisted karma' swilling around in my little head... :juggling:

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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby SarathW » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:46 pm

Thanks Ben
Don’t you think celibacy is a very important aspect to be in the path?
Sometimes I wonder why you become a monk.
Only think I can think is, that you have the desire to devote your life to practice and teaching Dhamma.
So you can do this without belong to a particular tradition.
:)

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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:16 am

SarathW wrote:Thanks Ben
Don’t you think celibacy is a very important aspect to be in the path?
Sometimes I wonder why you become a monk.
Only think I can think is, that you have the desire to devote your life to practice and teaching Dhamma.
So you can do this without belong to a particular tradition.
:)


Hi Sarath,
If you are following the eight precepts you will be celibate. If you are already in a committed relationship - you can still make great progress without celibacy.
I know of one yogi who lives the life of a monk in Cambodia without belonging to a particular tradition but I think that particular path, without close association of kalayanamittas, is very hard if not impossible for many people. Hence my recommendation to keep things simple. One can live in the world as a layperson and have a life dedicated to the Dhamma.
Kind regards,
Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby Goofaholix » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:23 am

SarathW wrote:Thanks Ben
Don’t you think celibacy is a very important aspect to be in the path?


Not having a wife and children frees up a lot of time and worry, just as not having a job frees up a lot of time and worry. If this time is then dedicated to practice then that's going to help. I wouldn't say celibacy is very important though, it's a choice.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah

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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby SarathW » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:31 am

I don’t think that you can become an Arahant unless you a celibate!
I assumed here in this OP that the objective of becoming a monk is to attain Arahantship.
:)

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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:46 am

SarathW wrote:I don’t think that you can become an Arahant unless you a celibate!
I assumed here in this OP that the objective of becoming a monk is to attain Arahantship.
:)


If you have the opportunity to become a monk: take it.
If you don't have that opportunity but are seeking to get more serious about your practice: adopt the eight precepts if you are single as it will entail celibacy. If on the other hand you have a wife and family commitments - you can still make great progress by following the five precepts. I suggest you concern yourself with the requirements for arahant ship when it gets closer. Remember that while sila is foundational to any progress on the path, it's not the entirety of the path. Anyway, I am sure I am telling you things you already know.
Kind regards,
Ben.
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
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e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com

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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:05 am

Hi SarathW,

If you don't want to be part of a particular monastery, you might contact Ven Indrajala on DharmaWheel, who seems to have ordained somewhat independently, and ask him for some advice. He ordained early last year: http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=12499

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby SarathW » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:08 am

Thanks Mike
I missed that thread. :)
:)

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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby Sati1 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:17 am

Ben wrote:If on the other hand you have a wife and family commitments - you can still make great progress by following the five precepts. I suggest you concern yourself with the requirements for arahant ship when it gets closer.


Dear Ben,

Do you think that one can significantly increase chances of arahantship in future lives while being married, following the five precepts and studying and meditating diligently? Would a married layperson be able to become a stream enterer or a once- or non-returner?

Thank you.
Sati1
London, UK

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"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.10, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)

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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby SarathW » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:21 am

Hi Sati
Married lay person can become a stream enterer and a once returner.
:)

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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:02 am

If Becoming a mendicant, just find a teacher you trust to teach you the necessary rules....
You are reliant on a teacher for the first five years as a Bhikkhu and then can go your own way. But in the mean time living strictly by the five precepts and gradually incorporating the eight precepts for daily observance is more than enough.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby SarathW » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:56 pm

Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:
Thus, given the limited opportunities for institutional reform, the only course left open to those few men and women prepared to break the bonds of mainstream Buddhism in their determination to practice is to follow the example of the Buddha himself by engaging in what might be called personal or independent reform: to reject the general values of society, go off on their own, put up with society's disapproval and the hardships of living on the frontier, and search for whatever reliable meditation teachers may be living and practicing outside of the mainstream. If no such teachers exist, individuals intent on practice must strike out on their own, adhering as closely as they can to the teachings in the texts — to keep themselves from being led astray by their own defilements — and taking refuge in the example of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha in a radical way.

In a sense, there is a sort of folk wisdom to this arrangement. Anyone who would take on the practice only when assured of comfortable material support, status, and praise — which the Buddha called the baits of the world — would probably not be up to the sacrifices and self-discipline the practice inherently entails.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19803#p277919

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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:26 pm

Greetings Sarath,

That all seems like an inordinate amount of effort to go to, simply to avoid alignment with a tradition.

It's important to remember that the path happens within the mind, not within tradition.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby boris » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:35 am

SarathW wrote:Hi Sati Married lay person can become a stream enterer and a once returner. :)


Not quite true. You can have a wife, and be non-returner, but such relation can't be sexual.
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby SarathW » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:46 am

Isn’t marriage is some form of bond? So he still may have attachments.
:)

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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby boris » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:19 am

“I had four young wives. I then went to them and said: ‘Sisters, I have undertaken the training rules with celibacy as the fifth. If you want, you can enjoy wealth right here and do merits, or go back to your own family circle, or inform me if you want me to give you over to another man.’ My eldest wife then said to me: ‘Young sir, give me to such and such a man.’ I sent for that man, and with my left hand I took my wife, with my right hand I took the ceremonial vase, and I gave her to that man. But even while giving away my young wife, I don’t recall that any alteration took place in my mind. This is the third astounding and amazing quality found in me.
http://suttacentral.net/an8.21/en#21-22

He had 4 wives. One went away. 4 - 1 = 3. Hard to belive, but even with such grat obstacle as three wives you can be non-returner. :smile:
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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Re: Can I become a just a Buddhist Monk without belong to a

Postby SarathW » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:28 am

He called them sisters, that means he did not have any attachments.
It is like a divorce without divorce.
:shrug:


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