Food accepted by a Bhikkhu/ni

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.

Food accepted by a Bhikkhu/ni

Postby Hanzze » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:57 am

Does a Bhikkhu/ni (beside of some kinds of food, special occations and times) accept every food.

Does he/she organize (ask/order...) food and accept this later?

Does he/she accept food that is organized for him and offered to him?

and/or does he/she accept food that is shared with him?

and/or does he/she only accept food that is left over?

and/or does he/she only accept food that is left over and offered to him?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Food accepted by a Bhikkhu/ni

Postby appicchato » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:03 pm

Using the word 'only' means there's no other choice...in which case the answer is no...

In my experience (of six years in the robes in Thailand) the answers to your (six) questions are:

Yes
Some do, but not really on...
Yes
No
No
No
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Re: Food accepted by a Bhikkhu/ni

Postby Hanzze » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:50 pm

Thanks for sharing your experianses Ven. Appicchato.

That seems to me as well usuall here, exept the fourth question. "and/or does he/she accept food that is shared with him?" is maybe not well formulated if standing allone. Maybe "and/or does he/she accept food that is not left over and offered to him?" is better.

You also told that this is your experiance. What would be answer in reference to the "how it should be trained"-set of the Vinaya?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Food accepted by a Bhikkhu/ni

Postby appicchato » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:50 am

What would be answer in reference to the "how it should be trained"-set of the Vinaya?


'Should' can be construed as a very relative term...one might suggest you investigate the Vinaya to draw your own conclusion...
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Re: Food accepted by a Bhikkhu/ni

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:48 am

Of course Ven. Appicchato, but my own conclusion could be very wrong as well, couldn't it?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Food accepted by a Bhikkhu/ni

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:26 am

Greetings Hanzze,

Hanzze wrote:Of course Ven. Appicchato, but my own conclusion could be very wrong as well, couldn't it?

I suspect venerable Appicchato might be suggesting that what's in the texts and what happens "on the ground" are often quite different.... thus, "how it should be trained" will depend on whether one feels obliged to teach from the texts or teach the local status quo.

I could be wrong, but that's how I read what was said.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Food accepted by a Bhikkhu/ni

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:49 am

retrofuturist wrote:I suspect venerable Appicchato might be suggesting that what's in the texts and what happens "on the ground" are often quite different....
Thanks retrofuturist for your thoughtful care, I also took it in that way.

retrofuturist wrote:thus, "how it should be trained" will depend on whether one feels obliged to teach from the texts or teach the local status quo.

Here I am not so sure if that was wanted to be transported by Ven Appicchato, as I think neither the textes nor the local status quo are secure indication, while the texts could give support also local (maybe even individual) status quo could give support in understaning the texts better.
Understanding the "how it should be trained" does not nessesary needs "right" or "wrong" samples. Both can be supports.
So far as how I understood or better used Ven Appicchato post.

May I ask you how it holds from your present view in regard to the OP question as I guess you also have some deeper knowledge of the Vinaya texts?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Food accepted by a Bhikkhu/ni

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:58 am

Greetings Hanzze,

Hanzze wrote:May I ask you how it holds from your present view in regard to the OP question as I guess you also have some deeper knowledge of the Vinaya texts?

Not really. It just seems that Ven. Appicchato's depiction of what happens differs from the Vinaya in the sense that the later provisions in your original post which are mentioned in the Vinaya are not required in practice, in Thailand because the alms offerings to bhikkhus from the laity are bountiful, and such applications of "sharing" and "leftovers" are not applicable/required/necessary.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Food accepted by a Bhikkhu/ni

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:12 am

"Because the alms offerings to bhikkhus from the laity are bountiful" -> "and such applications of "sharing" and "leftovers" are not applicable/required/necessary."

The grammar in your sentence could have raised some difficults for me in how I should understand this. Maybe you like to tell it in a different way and I guess it is not nessesary to take reference of any local status quo.
Offerings can be bountiful everywhere but are they acceptable in all circumstances? Or do they in some cases cause guilty conscience (even subtil, as a possible synonym for violation) or could damage the reputation of the Sangha (as the secound main protective reason of the Vinaya).
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Food accepted by a Bhikkhu/ni

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:54 am

Greetings Hanzze,

Hanzze wrote:Maybe you like to tell it in a different way ...

Not really. I don't think I could advance what I said any further, or with more clarity.

Good luck in finding your answers.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Food accepted by a Bhikkhu/ni

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:38 am

retrofuturist wrote:Not really. I don't think I could advance what I said any further, or with more clarity.

I keep some doubt in regard of this. But don't worry it's not that heavy to carry. Maybe it's just that I need to read it later one more time.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Food accepted by a Bhikkhu/ni

Postby Hanzze » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:40 am

I had reflected a little for my self using some own experiances and maybe some thoughts give some inspirations or will be correct if they are handicapped in one or the other way.

Does he/she organize (ask/order...) food and accept this later?

I do not feel well when I organice food, there was always a remorse even there have been times when I thought of being worth to do so or with the thought of "I do it for a good reason". It might seam that it is not taking what is not given, but actually it is and it doesn't matter in which creative way it is tryed, a guilty conscience remains.
To balance such things one is not free and needs to give something back to be able to stay at a level and do not walk step by step the direction down.

Its also not a good sample and for sure sooner or later a reason for harming the Sangha if one uses the protection of this groupe. So also from this view it would cause not the best.
This meets also the appearance of somebody who begs. For many it raises the preseption "Hey give me food", so it also is not easy to wait for a wise without giving the idea of begging (ask for food).

Does he/she accept food that is organized for him and offered to him?

Whether it is in a relationship like family, mother, fiends... or in the relationship of a spirituall community, or in relationship with supporters, it does not give freedom and is somehow also an acceptance of their ways (which could be somehow not always the best). So from my experiances there is no different between a mother and child relationship and supporter of the Sangha and disiple relationship. Of coures such a way of livelihood can give a lot of pressure (as a reaction of earned dept) but this pressure can be very difficult as not all mothers or supporters of the Sangha would understand the repayment and even angry of it. If one would be not able to give it back in the way it should be it is a slavehood one would not easy be able to escape. But it can also mean that one does not follow to do his deed correctly and hardly or is not able to do so. What reminds me on the saying of Ajahn Fuang: "Monks who eat the food that other people donate, but then don't practice, can expect to be reborn as water buffaloes next time around, to till the fields and work off their debts." and as far as observed there are lot of buffaloes wearing robes as tractors have seemly made such rebirthes unpossible.
This could be different if supporters are very mindful and have much understanding, but I guess that is a situation under millions as the tendency of the path is not easy be understood and tanha (love, desire... like this of a mother) is the dominant factor of motivation for support.

If one walks for alms, it often happens that people start to organice something to be able to offer, also here its not easy to break through the relation caused by tanha.

and/or does he/she accept food that is shared with him?

"cling together, swing together" is one aspect of that. Thinking on the very usuall way that layman (donor) eat together with the monks (receiver) even in timely distance, it does not feel well. Some doner will just eat what is left and that would not easily give the feeling as if one does not eat what other would like or even need.
While to eat the food what is left by the monks, for example, seems to be less hinder a lightening of the mind, the other direction does not easy do it. I would even say that it could be good livelihood to live from what is left over and given by monks in many situation.
How ever, shared in a meaning of together, reminds me on hunters. Groups of Dana hunters are not that rarely as one might think. It does not mean that it is done by a bad-will but mostly not very wise. Sharing in a group of like-minded is good and needed, but like-minded here means that the shared was not taken in any kind of way. There would be no trouble when the shared is clean and the people who demand on it aware of the need of others as well as the own need.

When people are about to eat and see somebody who is hungry, especially in areas where people know what it means to be hungry, they suddenly give an invitation or a share. That is sometimes realy great and sometimes it raises guilty conscience as they would even share if they have quite to less. Refusing on the other side would often hurt more, one self and others as well.

and/or does he/she only accept food that is left over?

Left over would be great, but not easy to find out what is left over. The appel in the grass? Did you have seen the worm just wanted to take over it? Temples and places of worship are also such places where food is left over (or give to somebody who is not able to take it). Well there are always plenty of hungry ghosts how demand on such food and in somehow it would even hurt some who would not like that you receive their food. It how ever requires the act of taking, even if it is done with a good messurment and not more than needed.

and/or does he/she only accept food that is left over and offered to him?

I guess that this matches the way to keep the mind light mostly but it also needs a lot of attention of situations as well as intentions and some understanding of thought of others. Such situations are a benefit for both without any string.

This refelections are of cause from the view of a now not free from defilements mind, and they would be different if one would see it with the eyes of a mind free of defilements. But I guess that is something that has influented much of the current behaviours and usuall ways and I am sure that even some addvices of the Buddha have acctually been directed to those who are really already a field of merit.

I look forward to read your thoughts as well as some literary hints.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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