can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.

can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby lotus flower » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:14 pm

Dear forum members.
My old dream to i will go to a monastery and i will become a buddhist nun. I will can go to a bhikkhuni monastery in the next year, first i will go for the visit, after it i will can go on my ordain way.
but i have got a big problem: i'm bisexual. i afraid the nuns will know it because i can't master of my eyes seldom, and i look at a woman a little. i do it seldom, and it is ACCIDENTAL. i afraid i can hide my bisexuality till only some weeks or months. :(
i don't live with sexual things, and i practice many Patimokha rules. i often use asubha meditations and i often think about bisexuality isn't naturally and isn't positive mind energy, and i think about bisexuality is a perverse thing and i want to lose it with help of my meditations and contemplations. but it isn't simply. sometimes i feel my meditations give pure clean to my mind, and help to me, but this mind-clean needs some years.... i think it.
What do you think? Have i got an opportunity to i will become a bhikkhuni? or no? :| :|
S A M S A R A IS ONLY D U K K H A
User avatar
lotus flower
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:04 pm

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:25 pm

Whether one's sexual preference is for the same sex or the opposite sex, or both, it's hard to remove sexual desire entirely. Mostly, those monks who disrobe after some time, do so because they are unable to get free from sexual desire.

Their efforts to restrain desire and train the mind for ten, twenty, or thirty years are still commendable. It is more than most are able to do.

Try to become a Blue Lotus Recluse. Who knows what you can achieve if you never take up the challenge?
AIM WebsiteMy ForumsPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
 
Posts: 1821
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby appicchato » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:02 am

lotus flower wrote:Have i got an opportunity to become a bhikkhuni?


Yes!...go for it...mindfully...
User avatar
appicchato
 
Posts: 1512
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:12 am

Bhantes,

Isn't there a vinaya rule, which does not entail defeat, that prohibits lesbian sex among bhikkhunis? This would automaticaly mean that nuns who are lesbian/bisexual can be ordained.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
User avatar
Modus.Ponens
 
Posts: 1827
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Funchal, Portugal

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby manas » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:31 am

lotus flower wrote: i often think about bisexuality isn't naturally and isn't positive mind energy, :buddha1: and i think about bisexuality is a perverse thing and i want to lose it with help of my meditations and contemplations. but it isn't simply.


Hello Lotus

I hope you are not feeling bad about having bisexual orientation. Being gay or bisexual is not perverse, any more than being heterosexual is perverse. It's all the same thing: just sexual desire.

I don't think that the Dhamma can make you lose your bisexuality, to then become heterosexual, any more than Christianity or any other religion can. The Dhamma can, in time, make you desireless for any kind of sex at all, but that goes for homosexuals and heterosexuals as well; the whole lot of us are suffering from the same thing: sexual desire.

I just wanted to clarify that, because I got the impression you felt ashamed about being bisexual. You do not need to, there's nothing to be ashamed of. Sexual desire, whether for male or female or both, is ultimately the same thing. It's all simply sexual desire. One kind is not worse than the other. They all lead to dukkha, so they are all 'equally unwholesome'.

My personal opinion here, but I would gently advise you to first accept yourself as you are, as having bisexual orientation, and stop feeling bad about that, rather than trying to rush off and stamp out all sexual feelings, out of a sense of shame. If you want to transcend all sexual feelings, out of metta for yourself (because you can see that all sexual feelings lead towards stress), then fine; but I don't advise doing it out of shame.

with metta
manas :anjali:
Primum non nocere: "first, do no harm."
User avatar
manas
 
Posts: 1945
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby Feathers » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:40 am

Good post manas :bow:

One phrase I always try to keep in mind is "you have to be somebody before you can be nobody" (Jack Engler). Sometimes, there are things we need to resolve with our "selves" before we can move beyond "the self" (if that makes sense). Otherwise, I think there is some danger of using Buddhism to try and avoid or repress issues.
Feathers
 
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:14 pm

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby dagon » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:04 pm

manas wrote:
lotus flower wrote: i often think about bisexuality isn't naturally and isn't positive mind energy, :buddha1: and i think about bisexuality is a perverse thing and i want to lose it with help of my meditations and contemplations. but it isn't simply.


Hello Lotus

I hope you are not feeling bad about having bisexual orientation. Being gay or bisexual is not perverse, any more than being heterosexual is perverse. It's all the same thing: just sexual desire.

I don't think that the Dhamma can make you lose your bisexuality, to then become heterosexual, any more than Christianity or any other religion can. The Dhamma can, in time, make you desireless for any kind of sex at all, but that goes for homosexuals and heterosexuals as well; the whole lot of us are suffering from the same thing: sexual desire.

I just wanted to clarify that, because I got the impression you felt ashamed about being bisexual. You do not need to, there's nothing to be ashamed of. Sexual desire, whether for male or female or both, is ultimately the same thing. It's all simply sexual desire. One kind is not worse than the other. They all lead to dukkha, so they are all 'equally unwholesome'.

My personal opinion here, but I would gently advise you to first accept yourself as you are, as having bisexual orientation, and stop feeling bad about that, rather than trying to rush off and stamp out all sexual feelings, out of a sense of shame. If you want to transcend all sexual feelings, out of metta for yourself (because you can see that all sexual feelings lead towards stress), then fine; but I don't advise doing it out of shame.

with metta
manas :anjali:


+1

with respect
paul
dagon
 
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:45 am

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby Jhana4 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:01 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:Bhantes,

Isn't there a vinaya rule, which does not entail defeat, that prohibits lesbian sex among bhikkhunis? This would automatically mean that nuns who are lesbian/bisexual can be ordained.


That could be the case, but I couldn't see the logic behind having such a rule. Celibacy is celibacy.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1308
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby Jhana4 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:03 pm

There are all sorts of places where homosexuals and bisexuals are not allowed, but they are there anyway. They are hanging around us in places, every day, where we are bathing, getting dressed, etc. Yet, we don't see news articles like "bisexual/gay person finally loses their control and gets inappropriate in a locker room". It makes you take a different perspective on celibacy, homosexuals and bisexuals, doesn't it?
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1308
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby lotus flower » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:37 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Try to become a Blue Lotus Recluse. Who knows what you can achieve if you never take up the challenge?


Thanks, it is a good doctrine.

appicchato wrote:
lotus flower wrote:Have i got an opportunity to become a bhikkhuni?


Yes!...go for it...mindfully...


if i never try it, i will don't know can i become a bhikkhuni or can't...! thanks the encouraging words. :)

manas wrote:
lotus flower wrote: i often think about bisexuality isn't naturally and isn't positive mind energy, :buddha1: and i think about bisexuality is a perverse thing and i want to lose it with help of my meditations and contemplations. but it isn't simply.


Hello Lotus

I hope you are not feeling bad about having bisexual orientation. Being gay or bisexual is not perverse, any more than being heterosexual is perverse. It's all the same thing: just sexual desire.

I don't think that the Dhamma can make you lose your bisexuality, to then become heterosexual, any more than Christianity or any other religion can. The Dhamma can, in time, make you desireless for any kind of sex at all, but that goes for homosexuals and heterosexuals as well; the whole lot of us are suffering from the same thing: sexual desire.

I just wanted to clarify that, because I got the impression you felt ashamed about being bisexual. You do not need to, there's nothing to be ashamed of. Sexual desire, whether for male or female or both, is ultimately the same thing. It's all simply sexual desire. One kind is not worse than the other. They all lead to dukkha, so they are all 'equally unwholesome'.

My personal opinion here, but I would gently advise you to first accept yourself as you are, as having bisexual orientation, and stop feeling bad about that, rather than trying to rush off and stamp out all sexual feelings, out of a sense of shame. If you want to transcend all sexual feelings, out of metta for yourself (because you can see that all sexual feelings lead towards stress), then fine; but I don't advise doing it out of shame.

with metta
manas :anjali:


all sexual desire are dukkha, it's true. and this is the reason why we practice asubha meditations and thinking about death, body's death. i don't be ashamed but i can't fully accept it still, and i think it is a trouble because i would like become a bhikkhuni. but maybe my bisexuality will be the reason which will close my ordination way. it is a very difficult matter.
many peoples don't like lesbians and bisexuals. they look us like a leper peoples.

you are very kind, but i can deep in this matter.
i think heterosexuality is the only naturally spiritual energy because i was read some spiritual and buddhist thoughts about this theme. if anybody does oral sex, this people makes bad karma. i read it in a buddhist book.
i think homosexuality, bisexuality are also bad karma like sado maso or pedophilia or similar things. some buddhist teacher says homo or bisexuality is a bad karma. (instance Ole Lama, i know he is a vajrayana teacher but he is a wise man but don't wiser like theravada teachers, i think.)
my ex teacher (he finished his teaching but he taught theravada) said i can LOSE my bisexuality if i often meditate about these things are bad karma and if i would have sex with women it would push me far from the Dhamma, Buddha, Sangha, Nibbana. he was a great teacher and he reached very high meditation levels and more than these levels....

Jhana4 wrote:There are all sorts of places where homosexuals and bisexuals are not allowed, but they are there anyway. They are hanging around us in places, every day, where we are bathing, getting dressed, etc. Yet, we don't see news articles like "bisexual/gay person finally loses their control and gets inappropriate in a locker room". It makes you take a different perspective on celibacy, homosexuals and bisexuals, doesn't it?


maybe
Last edited by lotus flower on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
S A M S A R A IS ONLY D U K K H A
User avatar
lotus flower
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:04 pm

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby Coyote » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:46 pm

Lotus,

I can certainly see that the monastic life might present certain, different, challenges to person who is attracted to the same sex. But there is nothing against it in the vinaya as far as I am aware.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26
Coyote
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:42 pm
Location: Wales - UK

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:07 pm

Jhana4 wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Bhantes,

Isn't there a vinaya rule, which does not entail defeat, that prohibits lesbian sex among bhikkhunis? This would automatically mean that nuns who are lesbian/bisexual can be ordained.


That could be the case, but I couldn't see the logic behind having such a rule. Celibacy is celibacy.


Yes, I think that's the case, but I'm not completely sure. I think the rule has the same purpose as the rule against masturbation, with its consequences according to the vinaya. In the begining I asked myself what was the difference between lesbian sex and heterosexual sex? Is this discrimination? Then I figured it out. I'm positive it's because heterosexual sex can lead to children, and thus, disrobing.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
User avatar
Modus.Ponens
 
Posts: 1827
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Funchal, Portugal

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby Kingdubrock » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:52 pm

Lotus,
I wont reiterate what manas said, but I encourage you to think about it when you can. I hate presuming to tell people what to think, but maybe consider this from another perspective. Completely aside from the issue of ordination, your views on this subject are just views. They are yours to have and thats your right. But consider that many men and women may be wrestling with what you are. You may be ok thinking that homosectuality is out of accord with nature, deviant, unwholesome. But from the sounds of it you have something else, namely dharma, to hold on to, to give you a sense of identity and dignity that is separate from your sexuality. Great. But for others, far too many others, being told, over and over that they are bad, perverted, unworthy of acceptance, inadequate or whatever really really hurts and messes them up. Some turn to prostitution, drugs, rebellious and wreckless actions, even suicide. Should any of them have the great good fortune to hear about, find and want to practice the dharma, the only thing that would be unwholesome, impure, and produce bad karma would be for the sangha to alienate and emotionally hurt them (to say nothing about subjecting them to some kind of nonsense about pursuing a "cure").

Back to ordained folks, I will tell you that in my little corner of the world, the number of gay and lesbian monks and nuns I have met is fairly high. There is also an LGBT dharma study and practice group that is warmly supported by and taught by monks and nuns. They give teaching and advice on many things, but changing or "curing" homesexuality is not part of it.
In fact one Taiwanese monk I know told me that he was raped, many times, in the monastery when he was a novice. And not by nuns.

Freedom from clinging desire and craving is certainly the aim, and this would include sexual desire, but straight or gay sexual desire is built in and probably the most difficult source of craving or clinging we have. The point is to be free from its hold on your mind and actions, not to use it as a souce of judgement and condemnation of others or even yourself. In fact reinforcing judgemental views about sexuality or any other form of human difference will be a greater hinderance to ones liberation than who they like or love. In my opinion anyway.
Kingdubrock
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:25 am

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby dxm_dxm » Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:38 pm

It is proven that all woman are bisexual more or less. You should try to cope with this desire now, as a lay person. You need to be advanced in meditation and resisting desires in order to remain a nun after becoming one. If you are not going to rape somebody at the monastery maby this desire will fade away while training as a nun. Desires do not dissapear by only wanting that to happen, only meditation can do that and that is it's whole purpose
dxm_dxm
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:32 am
Location: Romania, Bucharest

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby clw_uk » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:45 pm

It is proven that all woman are bisexual more or less


Is it? A lot of my female friends are completely heterosexual ...
Open your mind and see, open your mind and rise. Shine the light of wisdom and see, don't wait till the end of time.
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3284
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:44 pm

And you believed them????
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
User avatar
lyndon taylor
 
Posts: 665
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, Southern California, USA

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby clw_uk » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:17 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:And you believed them????



The women I am referring to I have known for 12 years. I know them pretty well, so yeah I believe them.


Also it's a bit offensive so say everyone is bisexual when people say they aren't. It's a bit like telling a gay man he's really straight or bi.


To turn it around, I'm completely homosexual so not every man is bisexual ...
Open your mind and see, open your mind and rise. Shine the light of wisdom and see, don't wait till the end of time.
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3284
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby Feathers » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:12 pm

Sexuality is a sliding scale not a handful of fixed categories, so even women or men who are heterosexual may have a slight attraction to the occasional member of the same sex. But it's going a bit far to say "all women are bisexual more or less" - bisexual implies (to me anyway) an actual interest in acting on it/reasonably frequent attraction to both sexes, even if one is favoured.
Feathers
 
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:14 pm

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby Still Searching » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:46 pm

Greetings Lotus Flower,

Your question is very interesting.

I too wish to be ordained and I used to want to be transgender.
I have a Gender Identity Disorder but most monasteries can't accept transexuals as it'll be difficult to keep up with the medication schedule.

So yeah, I can relate to you but please be aware, ordaining is a serious thing, you must be willing to give up all those fancy items at home and help the community by committment & discipline.

Sexuality is okay, attraction or compassion is okay but romantic relationships are forbidden. Not to stop your happiness, it just shows your dedication.

I'm female but wished to be male, I have a strong attachment to love and emotion but I'm giving it up but I'm not a nun yet, I still have a lot yet to learn and so far, I'm slowly doing well. I let go of my feelings for a woman, that is very difficult yet a tiny small step forward to de-attachment and proud of myself.

Just remember, Buddhism isn't an accessory nor a fashion statement.
"Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment." ~ Siddhārtha, Gautama Buddha
User avatar
Still Searching
 
Posts: 129
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:28 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: can i become a bhikkhuni if i'm bisexual?

Postby melancholy » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:45 pm

i am a male and straight. if i start living in a nunnery among nuns especially as a monk how it would be? same theory can be said about lesbian nuns. once ajahn brahm advised to a gay who wished to ordain not to do so if he seriously can’t commit to restrain him self because he will be living with the objects of his attraction. i know many gay monks who soiled not only themselves but also others. but i also know one monk who was gay but managed to overcome his lust after years of struggle. now he is a very good meditator. so are you the rare one or the common many? if you are the rare one dhamma will surely benefit you. :)
melancholy
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:40 pm


Return to Ordination and Monastic Life

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests