YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery? - Page 7 - Dhamma Wheel

The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 882
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby ancientbuddhism » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:12 am

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Sylvester » Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:10 am

Thanks! Illuminating, as always.

dhammarelax
Posts: 1087
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:59 pm

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby dhammarelax » Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:00 pm

Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:18 am

Sure, it's common for the Suttas to quote, and often redefine, terminology from the Upanishads and elsewhere. And this is a reference to the aim of the whole process. I thought that Dave was, perhaps, referring to corruptions of the techniques discussed in the sutta by the later addition of Brahminiaca ideas into the techniques. Is there such a reference for that?

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby daverupa » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:04 pm


sphairos
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:37 am

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby sphairos » Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:03 pm

All the existing evidence points into the opposite direction: Satipaṭṭhāna is the original, core teaching of the historical Buddha and his companions and predecessors.

In terms of textological analysis, historical and textual criticism, Sujato's claims are ridiculous and totally untenable.

In fact, satipaṭṭhāna may very well represent the Buddha's personal final teaching, the comprehensive meditation system, which he designated in the end of his teaching life. Thus the minor textual inconsistencies may reflect the great effort of codification and loss prevention of his greatest and latest personal teaching (built upon jhāna, ānāpānasati, kāyagatāsati, kkhandhā-analysis-meditation etc.).
Last edited by sphairos on Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?

dhammarelax
Posts: 1087
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:59 pm

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby dhammarelax » Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:41 pm

Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

dhammarelax
Posts: 1087
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:59 pm

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby dhammarelax » Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:49 pm

Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

sphairos
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:37 am

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby sphairos » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:21 pm

How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?

sphairos
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:37 am

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby sphairos » Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:05 pm

"Are there any authors we could read that defend this position?"

See especially Kuan (2006), pp. 137-138 and "Conclusion", and Wynne's articles of the 2009th (don't remember exactly where he refers to the problem in those).
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?

User avatar
Kamran
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:14 am

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Kamran » Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:24 am

Analayo points out in his Chinese agama comparison that the breath sections in the Pali are later additions since it is not in the agama version and is not as useful as the anapanasati breath....not that breath is not a valid object just that it's not part of satipatthana.
"Silence gives answers"

Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Sylvester » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:11 am

In his Perspectives, Ven Analayo has had to grudgingly concede that the Pali inclusion of the Aggregates n 4 Noble Truths in the contemplation of phenomena is commentarial in nature - p.171 - 172. However, he still believes that the establishment of mindfulness is principally a practice directed at liberating insight and produces the jhanas only as a side effect. This notwithstanding MN 125 portraying mindfulness as being geared towards the tranquilisation of unskillful intentions ie it is a Samantha strategy.

Rather than view insight as being the exclusive accoutrement of Awakening, I wonder if the jhanas are not metaphorical Nibbanas that need insight to generate. Not a comfortable idea, given how jealously Buddhism asserts a monopoly on every kind of insight. Yet, I'm reminded that the Buddha considered His 2 teachers as having little dust in their eyes while He did not consider the Five as such.

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6269
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Mkoll » Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:01 pm

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:17 am

:goodpost:

obo
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:12 pm

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby obo » Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:37 pm

I apologize for introducing this idea without a citation, but I cannot seem to locate the place it was stated. Rhys Davids at one place discussed the meaning of 'suttanta' as 'end (anta) of the suttas', meaning 'a compilation', and points out that the suttantas are found mainly in the Digha and Majjhima Nikayas.

With this understanding the idea of forgery must be dismissed. Whoever put together the Majjhima and Digha Nikayas was, if this understanding is correct, declaring right out that what we are seeing are compilations. Closely related anthologies if you will.

Another aspect of this is that there is no good reason to think that Gotama himself may not have been the compiler.

One could definitely piece together the entire Satipatthana verbatum from passages in the Anguttara and Samyutta Nikayas. This would argue strongly against the conclusion that the Satipatthanas were first created whole and then later raided for parts. The Satipatthanas may well have been spoken as they are found by Gotama as collections of earlier bits, but the disjointed 'feel', the lack of symmetry (e.g., some parts have similes and some not), of the four divisions would suggest a compilation of the Satipatthana by someone other than Gotama either before or after his death. I agree also with others above who have said: Who knows? It is not important. The content is True Dhamma no matter what.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:59 am

That's the way I see it. The whole issue seems quaintly irrelevant scholasticism to me. There are so many mentions of mindfulness of body, breath, feelings, mind states, dhammas in many suttas. It is necessary to consult a variety of suttas to get a full picture, so I don't see the practical importance of the "controversy".

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
Javi
Posts: 390
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:40 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Javi » Mon May 11, 2015 12:50 pm

I agree with you guys that at the end of the day the composite nature of the Satipatthana sutta is not a big deal -indeed most Buddhist texts we have are probably composites like this. However I don't think it's irrelevant. Having an understanding of how the texts we read evolved is important, and a cross textual approach allows to surmise which elements are earlier, or part of the original formula of meditation practice. This is not to attack or demean any modern practices which use later traditions or textual recensions (though some scholars do this) but to get a richer and more well rounded understanding of all dhamma practices and their history.

Reading Analayo's work has helped me immensely. It can get very complex and scholarly sometimes but its worth it because you gain a better appreciation of the text and how it all comes together. Also reading the Chinese Madhyama Agama version side by side with the MN version is very eye opening - I think its a good balance since I do agree with Sujato on this point which is that the Pali one seems to lean towards insight as its core practice - hence the expansion of the dhammas section and addition of the 'refrain' - while the Sarvastivadin Agama seems to stress samatha - including jhana descriptions. I also enjoyed Sujato's reconstruction of the Satipatthana Ur-text (or root text) and I think it makes a lot of sense here though at the end of the day these things are very difficult.

What matters here is that Buddhist meditation was and is a very broad tent and I'm happy to see scholarship opening up that tent.
Vayadhammā saṅkhārā appamādena sampādethā — All things decay and disappoint, it is through vigilance that you succeed — Mahāparinibbāna Sutta

Tārakā timiraṃ dīpo māyāvaśyāya budbudaḥ supinaṃ vidyud abhraṃ ca evaṃ draṣṭavya saṃskṛtam — A shooting star, a clouding of the sight, a lamp, An illusion, a drop of dew, a bubble, A dream, a lightning’s flash, a thunder cloud — This is the way one should see the conditioned — Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā

I have seen all things that are done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a chase after wind — Ecclesiastes 1.14

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon May 11, 2015 7:54 pm


User avatar
Javi
Posts: 390
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:40 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Javi » Tue May 12, 2015 5:32 pm

Vayadhammā saṅkhārā appamādena sampādethā — All things decay and disappoint, it is through vigilance that you succeed — Mahāparinibbāna Sutta

Tārakā timiraṃ dīpo māyāvaśyāya budbudaḥ supinaṃ vidyud abhraṃ ca evaṃ draṣṭavya saṃskṛtam — A shooting star, a clouding of the sight, a lamp, An illusion, a drop of dew, a bubble, A dream, a lightning’s flash, a thunder cloud — This is the way one should see the conditioned — Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā

I have seen all things that are done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a chase after wind — Ecclesiastes 1.14

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue May 12, 2015 7:38 pm



Return to “Early Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine