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The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery? - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Cittasanto
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:16 am

Good to know but that does leave the question as to why Ajahn used it?


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:58 am


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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:43 am

mean this first line jokingly, did you just save yourself a heck of a lot of research and time? :tongue:

that seams like a simple teaching and common sense! someone has done a comparison of three versions I noticed on another thread a while ago here is a copy if anyone wants it.

although if you remove all the parts that are not in each sutta/sutra version including the various Abhidhammas you are left with only the impurities of the Body and Bhojangas (see attachment)
Attachments
Satipatthana-2.pdf
(61.92 KiB) Downloaded 204 times


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Sylvester » Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:27 am


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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:30 am


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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Kare » Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:54 pm

Whenever this "eternal" discussion of concentration versus insight turns up, I like to refer to the Yuganaddhasutta:

On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!"

"Yes, friend," the monks responded.

Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four?

"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths."

The translation of Thanissaro can be discussed, but the main point is clear: You can start with concentration, you can start with insight, you can develop them both in harmony, or you can start with a more intellectual approach.
Mettāya,
Kåre

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Sylvester » Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:56 pm


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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Dmytro » Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:28 pm



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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Sylvester » Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:40 pm

Thanks Dmytro.

I agree with Ven Soma's commentarial exposition. The "removal" of the Hindrances being achieved through the cultivation of the opposite qualities would mean attaining the Jhanas, since the factors of the 1st Jhana are posited to be the factors that oppose the respective Hindrances (at least from the Visudhimagga typology).

I posted the hypothetical to invite a discussion on the possibility of using the Satipatthana exercises (as in DN 22 and MN 10) for what is popularly called "present moment" awareness. If the "present moment" were marked by a suppression of the 5 Hindrances (ie post-Jhana samadhi, which I trust is what Ven Soma's commentary means by "suppression in absorption"), then it seems that the only plausible type of "sati" that could be performed would be by way of memory/recollection, rather than "present moment" contemplation.

What do you think about the Culavedalla Sutta's proposition that the Satipatthanas are the "basis" of samadhi? Do the Commentaries draw a distinction between this aspect of Satipatthana from the aspect explained for MN 10?

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:28 am


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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Sylvester » Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:16 am

Many thanks tilt. I hesitated to use the translations, as I was uncertain if I would be wading into controversy, particularly for "having overcome, in this world, grief and covetousness" (Ven Soma's) or "having put away grief and covetousness for the world" (Rhys Davids'). Even "upacara" presents difficulty for me, since I have a choice between "access" and "neighbourhood" and the latter does carry broader implications. But there you have it.

I'm generally inclined to agree with your assessment of those methods based on "momentary" samadhi being wetter than they should be. Some reports seem to indicate that such meditators do obtain the Jhana factors, whilst retaining the ability for discursive thought (a la Anupada Sutta, MN 111 perhaps?). At least that is how Sayadaw u Pandita presents it -

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pandita/index.htm

The issue with the Vipassana Jhanas (with or without discursive thought) could perhaps be simplified to this - are they described in the suttas or the Abhidhamma or Commentaries? For that matter, how is "momentary" samadhi related to Vipassana Jhana?

But I suppose on the practical level, we could also dispense with such nit-picking and stay with whatever works for us.

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:54 am


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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Dmytro » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:27 am



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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby BlackBird » Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:14 am

Last edited by BlackBird on Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:18 am, edited 3 times in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Sylvester » Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:27 am

Thank you Avuso Dmytro for the very helpful dissection.

What I'm trying to figure out is how the "samatha" aspects of Satipatthana are brought to fruition. The Commentaries interpret the "abandoning of the grief and covetousness for the world" to mean suppression of the 5 Hindrances by absorption. Yet, I imagine that this are precisely the goals of samatha as is traditionally presented by those who equate samatha with Jhana.

So, it seems rather circular that the first 3 sets of satipatthanas can be used to cultivate samadhi, but the formulaic description assumes that the 5 Hindrances have already been abandoned, so why bother using the 3 Satiptthanas to cultivate samatha?

Do you think there is any significance to the fact that the Anapanasati Sutta does not contain the “Vineyya Loke Abhijjha-Domanassam" formula?

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Dmytro » Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:50 pm



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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Sylvester » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:47 am

Many thanks!

So it appears from Ven Thanissaro's analysis that the relationship of Satipatthana and the Bojjhangas would be that they turn in a spiral around one another. That looks like a very reasonable interpretation to me, and does avoid the difficulties I face in trying to read the Satipatthana Suttas linearly.

Based on this spiral model, do you think it is fair to say that the "Vineyya Loke Abhijjha-Domanassam" formula is not indicative of the pinnacle of the abandonment of the Hindrances, but a progressive one? Or must we interpret that stock phrase as referring to the ideal state, as the suttas generally are wont to lay out ideal sets?

Do you know of any other suttas, besides the Culavedalla Sutta, that makes a direct linkage between the Satipatthanas and Samadhi? As you rightly pointed out earlier, the Satipatthanas develop the Bojjhangas which are in turn largely comprised of factors related to Jhana. Now, I accept that that is a very strong correlative relationship, but perhaps you could point out some suttas that explicitly make the link.

:namaste:

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Dmytro » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:41 am



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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby fig tree » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:48 am


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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Postby Jechbi » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:04 pm



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