The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
Javi
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Javi »

I agree that we need to interpret the sutta in the context of all the others - in what's called the hermeneutic circle if you will. To understand that context better, we use history and textual analysis to understand how those texts evolved and how they are structured. So its clearly not irrelevant scholasticism.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by mikenz66 »

Sure, it can be useful at times. What I was pointing out, though, was that the various lists that may or may not have been added to the Pali version, or lost from other versions, are not "late ideas". They are core lists, such as the Noble Truths, so their addition is, to me, of no consequence. The sutta, after all, seems to be just a list of possible objects, not a step-by-step progression (though the four foundations do seem to be progressively more subtle).

The additions in the Satipatthana sutta are, therefore, is in stark contrast with some other suttas that show signs of later developments. An obvious one is the mundane/supramundane distinctions of MN117 The Great Forty, which appear to be part of abhidhammic developments:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 341#p16848
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 92#p212610

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by DooDoot »

sphairos wrote: Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:03 pmIn fact, satipaṭṭhāna may very well represent the Buddha's personal final teaching, the comprehensive meditation system, which he designated in the end of his teaching life. Thus the minor textual inconsistencies may reflect the great effort of codification and loss prevention of his greatest and latest personal teaching (built upon jhāna, ānāpānasati, kāyagatāsati, kkhandhā-analysis-meditation etc.).
The marks/qualities of the teachings of the Buddha, which the Satipatthana Sutta does not accord to, include:
"[1] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak step-by-step.'

"[2] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak explaining the sequence [of cause & effect].'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
MN 118 Anapanasati Sutta is taught with the above qualities; as is each of the 37 Bodhipakkhiyādhammā. But not Satipatthana Sutta, which includes non-pleasant feelings after the calming of the breath and includes all sorts of dhammas in the 4th satipatthana, such as the five hindrances, which should be overcome or understood at the start of practise.

In support of Ajahn Sujato, a most unlikely supporter is (the late) Ajahn Buddhadasa who said, probably before Bhikkhu Sujato was even born:
They cling to the satipatthana of the Digha-nikaya (Long Discourses) which is not anything more than a long list of names, a lengthy catalogue of sets of dhammas. Although there are whole bunches of dhammas, no way of practice is given or explained there. This is what is generally taken to be satipatthana. Then it is adjusted and rearranged into these and those practices, which become new systems that are called satipatthana practices or meditation.*

Then, the followers of such techniques deny, or even despise, the Anapanasati approach, asserting that it is not satipatthana. In truth, Anapanasati is the heart of satipatthana, the heart of all four foundations of mindfulness. The 16 Steps is a straight-forward and clear practice, not just a list of names or dhammas like in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta (Digha-nikaya#22**).

The Anapanasati Sutta, on the other hand, shows how to practice the four foundations in a systematic progression that ends with emancipation from all dukkha. The sixteen steps work through the four foundations, each one developing upon the previous, and supporting the next. Practice all sixteen steps fully and the heart of the satipatthana arises perfectly. In short, the Satipatthana Suttas are only lists of names. The Anapanasati Sutta clearly shows how to practice the four foundations without anything extra or surplus. It does not mention unrelated matters. (B.4)

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhik ... athing.htm
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by sphairos »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:34 am
sphairos wrote: Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:03 pmIn fact, satipaṭṭhāna may very well represent the Buddha's personal final teaching, the comprehensive meditation system, which he designated in the end of his teaching life. Thus the minor textual inconsistencies may reflect the great effort of codification and loss prevention of his greatest and latest personal teaching (built upon jhāna, ānāpānasati, kāyagatāsati, kkhandhā-analysis-meditation etc.).
The marks/qualities of the teachings of the Buddha, which the Satipatthana Sutta does not accord to, include:
"[1] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak step-by-step.'

"[2] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak explaining the sequence [of cause & effect].'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
MN 118 Anapanasati Sutta is taught with the above qualities; as is each of the 37 Bodhipakkhiyādhammā. But not Satipatthana Sutta, which includes non-pleasant feelings after the calming of the breath and includes all sorts of dhammas in the 4th satipatthana, such as the five hindrances, which should be overcome or understood at the start of practise.

In support of Ajahn Sujato, a most unlikely supporter is (the late) Ajahn Buddhadasa who said, probably before Bhikkhu Sujato was even born:
They cling to the satipatthana of the Digha-nikaya (Long Discourses) which is not anything more than a long list of names, a lengthy catalogue of sets of dhammas. Although there are whole bunches of dhammas, no way of practice is given or explained there. This is what is generally taken to be satipatthana. Then it is adjusted and rearranged into these and those practices, which become new systems that are called satipatthana practices or meditation.*

Then, the followers of such techniques deny, or even despise, the Anapanasati approach, asserting that it is not satipatthana. In truth, Anapanasati is the heart of satipatthana, the heart of all four foundations of mindfulness. The 16 Steps is a straight-forward and clear practice, not just a list of names or dhammas like in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta (Digha-nikaya#22**).

The Anapanasati Sutta, on the other hand, shows how to practice the four foundations in a systematic progression that ends with emancipation from all dukkha. The sixteen steps work through the four foundations, each one developing upon the previous, and supporting the next. Practice all sixteen steps fully and the heart of the satipatthana arises perfectly. In short, the Satipatthana Suttas are only lists of names. The Anapanasati Sutta clearly shows how to practice the four foundations without anything extra or surplus. It does not mention unrelated matters. (B.4)

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhik ... athing.htm
Don't read Ajahn Sujato and Ajahn Buddhadasa, they are not scholars, and be careful in your claims of understanding the Early Buddhist system of thought.
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DooDoot
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by DooDoot »

sphairos wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:37 amDon't read Ajahn Sujato and Ajahn Buddhadasa, they are not scholars, and be careful in your claims of understanding the Early Buddhist system of thought.
If we don't read Ajahn Sujato and Ajahn Buddhadasa, how can we know anything or comment about them? I think Ajahn Sujato and Ajahn Buddhadasa have a right to their opinions. As for Ajahn Buddhadasa:
1. During 1949-1951, Buddhadasa was appointed by the Sangha to be the fifth regional leader for dhamma propagation throughout the 14 provinces of the South.

2. He was chosen to give an important keynote address on behalf of the official Thai monastic delegation to the Sixth Council held in Rangoon in 1954.

3. He was given numerous Honorary Doctorates by Thai universities. In 1980, the Supreme Patriarch visited him at Suan Mokkh and Mahachulalongkorn Buddhist University of Mahanikai Order bestowed on him an Honorary Doctorate of Buddhism. From 1982 to 1988 four State Universities in Thailand bestowed on Buddhadasa Honorary Doctorates.

4. His books, both written and transcribed from talks, fill many shelves at the National Library.

https://pub.uni-bielefeld.de/download/2304034/2304041
Regardless, I think when we post about a topic we should provide evidence for our opinions. I think the personal opinion I personally posted is well-evidenced and well-spoken and, at the very least, worthy of consideration. I can't imagine doing all of the work of completing the 1st three Satipatthana and then, in the 4th Satipatthana, observing the Five Hindrances. My opinion inclines to the Satipatthana Sutta is a forgery. :)
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SarathW
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by SarathW »

The links in the OP are broken.
Does anyone have the new links.
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by DooDoot »

There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by thomaslaw »

Jechbi wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:31 am I don't hold the view that the Satipatthana Sutta is a forgery. Near the end of this talk, however, it sounds like Ajahn Sujato calls it a forgery, and I'm sure he knows a lot more about these things than I do. In light of this, I'm wondering whether others here might have knowledge about discussions or debate regarding the authenticity of the Satipatthana Sutta.

In this book, Ajahn Sujato offers more details, although he does not come right out and say the sutta is a forgery the way he seems to in the talk referenced above. I imagine some here are familiar with his videos on You Tube in which he offers educated criticism about approaches to meditation based on the sutta (and, worth noting, also offers some praise for them).

Thoughts? Insights? Does it matter?

:thanks:
Yes, the Satipatthana Sutta (in MN and DN) is a forgery. The early suttas on Satipatthana are found in the SN 47 Satipatthana Samyutta and SN 54 Anapana Samyutta; e.g. SN 47.2 and SN 54.1. (Cf. pp. 215-6, 225-6 in the Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism by Choong Mun-keat).
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by SarathW »

Yes, the Satipatthana Sutta (in MN and DN) is a forgery.
Ok. Where does it not compatible with Sutta?
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by LuisR »

Jesus christ, just when I really start to tackle and study the Satipatthana sutta to meditate the best way possible I discover this thread. First there is the whole debate on who interprets the Sutta properly....... now it might be a forgery!!!???? I am so confused right now I don't know what to do anymore. :toilet:
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by mikenz66 »

LuisR wrote: Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:06 pm Jesus christ, just when I really start to tackle and study the Satipatthana sutta to meditate the best way possible I discover this thread. First there is the whole debate on who interprets the Sutta properly....... now it might be a forgery!!!???? I am so confused right now I don't know what to do anymore. :toilet:
I think "forgery" is a rather overblown characterisation. It appears to have been added to over the years. However, the things that have been added (such as mindfulness of breathing in the first section, noble truths in the fourth section), are, of course, present in many other suttas. So it's not as if something "wrong" has been sneaked into the canon.

However, see Bhikkhu Sujato's comments here: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ar ... 10/10202/8 where he argues that one of the key purposes of satipatthana is as a prelude to jhana.

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by budo »

I would say due to the nature of the way suttas are written and broken up, the satipathana sutta is not whole by itself. As the book by Kheminda Thera "Way of Buddhist meditation" explains Satipathana sutta happens AFTER jhana, it assumes one is already in a state or post-state of Samma Samadhi.

My belief is that satipathana is off cushion practice. My analogy is anapanasati/jhanas is lighting the fire, and satipathana is maintaining, walking with, and carrying the fire.

Because I believe it is off-cushion practice, it is then erroneous to use satipathana methods to light the fire (aka vipassana jhanas). Therefore satipathana doesn't prelude samma samadhi, nor does it serve as the main practice which is samma samadhi, but is the "postlude" of samma samadhi / jhanas.
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by mikenz66 »

budo wrote: Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:36 pm I would say due to the nature of the way suttas are written and broken up, the satipathana sutta is not whole by itself. As the book by Kheminda Thera "Way of Buddhist meditation" explains Satipathana sutta happens AFTER jhana, it assumes one is already in a state or post-state of Samma Samadhi.
It's interesting how one can find different ways of interpreting the suttas by picking different ones. In the "gradual training" suttas such as: https://suttacentral.net/mn27/en/bodhi#sc26 and https://suttacentral.net/mn107/en/sujato#sc7, mindfulness precedes jhana, but I recall that there are other orderings, which I'm sure you can provide...

And, of course, insight (vipassana) and serenity (samatha) can be developed in different orders:
https://suttacentral.net/an2.21-31/en/sujato#sc31.1
https://suttacentral.net/an4.94/en/sujato#sc1
https://suttacentral.net/an4.170/en/sujato#sc3

Given this variety in the suttas, I would not be too quick to try to isolate the one true way of approaching the Path, or to claim that the approach of teacher X or Y is "wrong". Even from my rather limited experience, I've seen that different approaches seem to work better for different people, which is probably why there is such a variety of teachings and orderings in the suttas.

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by budo »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:29 pm
budo wrote: Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:36 pm I would say due to the nature of the way suttas are written and broken up, the satipathana sutta is not whole by itself. As the book by Kheminda Thera "Way of Buddhist meditation" explains Satipathana sutta happens AFTER jhana, it assumes one is already in a state or post-state of Samma Samadhi.
It's interesting how one can find different ways of interpreting the suttas by picking different ones. In the "gradual training" suttas such as: https://suttacentral.net/mn27/en/bodhi#sc26 and https://suttacentral.net/mn107/en/sujato#sc7, mindfulness precedes jhana, but I recall that there are other orderings, which I'm sure you can provide...

And, of course, insight (vipassana) and serenity (samatha) can be developed in different orders:
https://suttacentral.net/an2.21-31/en/sujato#sc31.1
https://suttacentral.net/an4.94/en/sujato#sc1
https://suttacentral.net/an4.170/en/sujato#sc3

Given this variety in the suttas, I would not be too quick to try to isolate the one true way of approaching the Path, or to claim that the approach of teacher X or Y is "wrong". Even from my rather limited experience, I've seen that different approaches seem to work better for different people, which is probably why there is such a variety of teachings and orderings in the suttas.

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Mike
We can solve this issue by process of elimination.

In AN10.095 Uttiya asks Ananda, how many people will become enlightened? Ananda tells him this question is irrelevant, the only thing that matters that everyone who becomes enlightened does so the same way, they must all first remove the five hinderances

"In the same way, it’s not the Realized One’s concern whether the whole world is released by this, or half, or a third. But the Realized One knows that whoever’s released from the world—in the past, future, or present—all have given up the five hindrances, corruptions of the heart that weaken wisdom. They have firmly established their mind in the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. And they have truly developed the seven awakening factors. That’s how they’re released from the world, in the past, future, or present. Uttiya, you were just asking the Buddha the same question as before in a different way. That’s why he didn’t answer.”

or DN16

"For, Lord, all the Blessed Ones, Arahants, Fully Enlightened Ones of the past had abandoned the five hindrances, [14] the mental defilements that weaken wisdom; had well established their minds in the four foundations of mindfulness; [15] had duly cultivated the seven factors of enlightenment, and were fully enlightened in unsurpassed, supreme Enlightenment."

Notice that first one removes the 5 hindrances, THEN attains wisdom and THEN establishes in the 4 foundations of mindfulness..

By definition then, one needs to suppress the 5 hindrances first and develop the 5 jhana factors. Therefore insight vs serenity development can only happen after the 5 hindrances have been suppressed and the 5 jhana factors developed.

You cannot attain insight if your perception is distorted by the 5 hinderances.

"Having abandoned these five hindrances — imperfections of awareness that weaken discernment— then, quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. This, too, is how striving is fruitful, how exertion is fruitful." -MN 101


So first jhana is the minimum requirement for attaining insight, once that basic level is reached, then comes insight vs serenity suttas you referenced, which means either one develops insight first or jhanas 2-8, or both at the same time. So first jhana is the starting point, until first jhana happens there is nothing.

Evidence for this is this is when the buddha says that one who has developed the 5 jhana factors is fully accomplished in the dhamma. Therefore insight cannot even happen before first jhana.

Furthermore anupada sutta shows that the quality of "sampajanna" (clearly knowing/seeing of impermanence) arises in 3rd jhana.


Therefore one cannot even practice Satipatthana if they haven't abandoned the five hindrances and developed the 5 factors.

Let me ask you this:

What good is telling yourself "I am turning, I am moving, I am eating, I am sitting, I am walking, etc.." if your perception is distorted, it won't mean anything, you can tell that to yourself all the time and it won't change anything. When someone is on the drug LSD they love looking at their own hands and other simple ordinary day to day things because their perception has totally changed so they are attaining new insight. Just the same when you have the new perception without the 5 hinderances.

What good is analyzing your body parts, if your perception is distorted by the 5 hindrances and the 5 jhana factors undeveloped?

What good is looking at dead bodies in charnal ground, if your perception is distorted by the 5 hindrances and the 5 jhana factors undeveloped?

What good is looking at your ordinary day to day feelings, if your perception is distorted by the 5 hindrances and the 5 jhana factors undeveloped?

What good is contemplating the 5 aggregates, impermanence, and dependent origination, if your thinking is distorted by the 5 hindrances and the 5 jhana factors undeveloped?

You are not going to attain direct knowledge with your old distorted and ordinary perception, the perception must change first:

"Now, lord, does perception arise first, and knowledge after; or does knowledge arise first, and perception after; or do perception & knowledge arise simultaneously?"

"Potthapada, perception arises first, and knowledge after. And the arising of knowledge comes from the arising of perception. One discerns, 'It's in dependence on this [7] that my knowledge has arisen.' Through this line of reasoning one can realize how perception arises first, and knowledge after, and how the arising of knowledge comes from the arising of perception." -DN9
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mikenz66
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Budo,

Thanks for the detailed analysis. I'm impressed by your obviously sincere practice, and I'm certainly not criticising it. I am just skeptical of any "one true way" assertions, since I've heard so many different versions of that "one true way" over the years, all supported by copious sutta quotes...

Best Wishes

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Mike
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