Early Buddhism in the Tarim Basin

[Dragon Lady]

It recently came to my attention that the Tocharians of the north Tarim Basin were Theravada practitioners, with Kucha as their main urban center of temples. Does anyone here know the history of Theravada in "western China"/Tarim Basin? Was that at a time before Theravada and Mahayana had developed into strictly "northern" and "southern" schools? I read that the oasis towns of the southern Tarim were Mahayana centers. I suppose the two groups related to the two different groups of Tocharians, divided on linguistic lines (Tocharian A and Tocharian B as they're known).

From whom did those early Indo-Europeans learn Buddhism? Were they one of the main conduits for Buddhism to travel from India into China? Where did the two different groups go when they migrated out of the Tarim Basin--the south Tarim/Mahayana followers and the north Tarim/Theravada followers? Apparently not all the Tocharians were Buddhists, because they later brought to India the Upanishads and other texts that became the Hindu canon.


I'd appreciate it if someone could recommend some reading material on the history of spiritual traditions and the the development of Buddhism in those communities.

Thank you.

[daverupa]

For a start:

Early Buddhist Transmission and Trade Networks

History of Early Chinese Buddhism: From Its Introduction to the Death of Hui-Yuan

Then, use the bibliography in the first one.

The second, in two volumes, is really more of a reference; try to find that one in a library, maybe.

[sphairos]

I'd recommend "THE SPREAD OF BUDDHISM IN SERINDIA: BUDDHISM AMONG IRANIANS, TOCHARIANS AND TURKS BEFORE THE 13TH CENTURY" in "The Spread of Buddhism". Brill. Leiden \ Boston. 2007. Pp. 75-129. You can easily find the pdf of the work on the net.

[sphairos]

Apparently not all the Tocharians were Buddhists, because they later brought to India the Upanishads and other texts that became the Hindu canon.

BTW, where did you get this? I have never heard about this and I believe the classical accounts of the formation of Vedic /(Older) Hindu scriptural canons (Renou, Thieme, MacDonell, Jamison, B. K. Smith, Witzel, Staal, Gonda, Bronkhorst etc.) have been firmly confirmed in a variety of ways and can't be sufficiently altered.

[Dragon Lady]

I'd recommend "THE SPREAD OF BUDDHISM IN SERINDIA: BUDDHISM AMONG IRANIANS, TOCHARIANS AND TURKS BEFORE THE 13TH CENTURY" in "The Spread of Buddhism". Brill. Leiden \ Boston. 2007. Pp. 75-129. You can easily find the pdf of the work on the net.

Thank you for this, it sounds interesting.

As to your other post, the Vedas, etc. were brought to India from migrants from the Tarim, were they not? Sorry, I can't quote sources off the top of my head, but I've read that some of those early Hindu texts describe early Indo-European beliefs and rituals. But please share your perspective. There may be different schools of thought on this. I'm not heavily invested either way.

[sphairos]

Dear Dragon Lady,

In short, there were no Tocharians among the people who produced Vedas etc. The peoples who laid the cultural foundation of Indian Civilization were Indo-Iranians, Aryans. For an exhaustive account of their history you may consult the monumental E. Kuzmina's "The Origin of the Indo-Iranians" (2007)
http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Indo-Irani ... 900416054X" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or some Mallory or Anthony works.

The origins and history of Tocharians are not yet well understood. What is known exactly is that they were speaking Indo-European, but not Indo-Iranian, Aryan, language, and were of Indo-European origins. Possibly, they were initially a small branch of early Indo-Europeans (may be even Indo-Aryans), forced very early away by the Eastern Iranians to the margins and beyond, where they developed their unique culture and language. As far as I understand, at least by the moment of Tarim Basin written documents (600 - 800 AD) they had been, initially Europods, already racially mixed with Mongoloids, quite like the modern Nepalese.

They had had strong ties with Indian Civilization at the very late stage, by the 2nd century AD, when they founded the great Kushan Empire. Vedas, Upaniṣads, sūtras, shastras and "Hindu canon" (the most part of it anyway) were composed long before.

[sphairos]

Dear Dragon Lady,

these two language maps may help you find the place of Tocharian among Indo-European Languages

https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/IE_Main2_Centum.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/IE_Main2_Satem.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SarathW]

This may some help.
The world religions tree.

http://funki.com.ua/ru/portfolio/lab/wo ... ions-tree/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SarathW]

Workshop 1 History Of Buddhism
This session is facilitated by Bhante Sujato and Ajahan Brahamali on 23 February 2013

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEndmSICHQY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Dragon Lady]

Dear Dragon Lady,

In short, there were no Tocharians among the people who produced Vedas etc. The peoples who laid the cultural foundation of Indian Civilization were Indo-Iranians, Aryans. For an exhaustive account of their history you may consult the monumental E. Kuzmina's "The Origin of the Indo-Iranians" (2007)
http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Indo-Irani ... 900416054X" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or some Mallory or Anthony works.

The origins and history of Tocharians are not yet well understood. What is known exactly is that they were speaking Indo-European, but not Indo-Iranian, Aryan, language, and were of Indo-European origins. Possibly, they were initially a small branch of early Indo-Europeans (may be even Indo-Aryans), forced very early away by the Eastern Iranians to the margins and beyond, where they developed their unique culture and language. As far as I understand, at least by the moment of Tarim Basin written documents (600 - 800 AD) they had been, initially Europods, already racially mixed with Mongoloids, quite like the modern Nepalese.

They had had strong ties with Indian Civilization at the very late stage, by the 2nd century AD, when they founded the great Kushan Empire. Vedas, Upaniṣads, sūtras, shastras and "Hindu canon" (the most part of it anyway) were composed long before.

Hi, Thanks. That book has been on my "wish list" on Amazon for quite awhile. A bit out of my price range, though I suppose I could request it through interlibrary loan.

The latest info I've found says the Vedas were brought to India by proto-Indo-Euros from Turkey. The Tocharians evolved from proto-Indo-Euros migrating east from the Pontic Steppe region. They first arrived in the Altai, then later dropped down into the Tarim. This, according to various Russian researchers, and I think Mallory covers that, as well.

[sphairos]

Dear Dragon Lady,

probably the best way for you to get a glimpse of creation of Vedas is to read the article by M. Witzel "Vedas and Upanishads" (33 pp.) in the "The Blackwell Companion to Hinduism"

here it is
https://www.sendspace.com/file/clcqjx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's a really brilliant piece of scholarship from the best Vedic scholar.

Then, if you still have questions, turn to his "the The Development of the Vedic Canon and its Schools : The Social and Political Milieu" (93 pp.)

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/canon.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And you may also find useful
VEDIC HINDUISM
by S. W. Jamison and M. Witzel
(118 pp.)

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/vedica.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, here is the Kuzmina's unwieldy work for you

https://www.sendspace.com/file/pofq00" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ask if you have any questions.

All the best,
Sphairos

[Jetavan]

The latest info I've found says the Vedas were brought to India by proto-Indo-Euros from Turkey. The Tocharians evolved from proto-Indo-Euros migrating east from the Pontic Steppe region. They first arrived in the Altai, then later dropped down into the Tarim. This, according to various Russian researchers, and I think Mallory covers that, as well.

Greetings,

One theory of Indo-European origins states that the Indo-European language group originated in eastern Turkey, but this was around 4000 BCE (if not earlier), way before the Vedas are thought to have been composed (c. 1500 BCE) somewhere in the region of northwestern India.

[Dragon Lady]

The latest info I've found says the Vedas were brought to India by proto-Indo-Euros from Turkey. The Tocharians evolved from proto-Indo-Euros migrating east from the Pontic Steppe region. They first arrived in the Altai, then later dropped down into the Tarim. This, according to various Russian researchers, and I think Mallory covers that, as well.

Greetings,

One theory of Indo-European origins states that the Indo-European language group originated in eastern Turkey, but this was around 4000 BCE (if not earlier), way before the Vedas are thought to have been composed (c. 1500 BCE) somewhere in the region of northwestern India.

Thanks for your post. My understanding is that approx. 1500 BCE is when the Vedas were written down, or began to be written down. But prior to that, they were oral tradition, some say--carried by peoples migrating into NW India from "Central Asia" through the Pamirs. I can't find it now, but earlier I'd found a source that said that migration from Central Asia originated closer to the Black Sea.

Oh well. It looks like the question of Vedic origins is a political hot potato.
And Indo-Euro origins plus Tocharian origin theories are also in a state of flux. I found an article by Mallory in which he's questioning his earlier belief that the (proto-)Tocharians migrated down from southern Siberia to the Tarim. He's now proposing their predecessors came from Turkey. So, meh...
I wonder if the truth might turn out to be some of both. Time will tell. Someday. ...hopefully. In the meantime, I have my reading cut out for me, per links provided by sphairos, above.

[sphairos]

Dear Jetavan,

the truth is that it is an only one small branch (probably, pretty archaic) of Proto-Indo-Europeans that stayed/delayed for some time in Anatolia and Northern Turkey, and then, after moving southern, formed Aryan-Armenian-Greek subgroup of Indo-European languages. The group that preferred to stay in Anatolia and Caucasus formed the earliest Indo-European languages : Luwian-Hittite. Luwian language was even written in hieroglyphic and cuneiform form! It's the only Indo-European language that has ever had hieroglyphic written system. There are extant texts and you can read "Indo-European" hieroglyphs by yourself! The Aryan-Armenian-Greek subgroup of Indo-European languages is the second oldest after the Hittite-Luwian and almost as archaic as the latter is.

All the other Indo-European languages (the so-called "Old European" - the predecessors of Germanic, Roman, Slavic etc.) 5-6 thousand years ago existed as dialects within the common Proto-Indo-European language (as a pool of dialects, presumably) and, variously and interdependently evolved then flooded Europe from Ukrainian and Russian steppes in the 3rd thousand years BC (with the advent of the Bronze Age).

[sphairos]

"when the Vedas were written down, or began to be written down"

Dear Dragon Lady,

be careful, Vedas were never "written down". They are oral. In the 12 cent. AD they were actually written down due to an order of a ruler, by they have remained "to be oral" to the present day. The young Brahmanas (Brahmins) start learning them by heart from their early childhood every generation. See the paper by Witzel on their composition - it's great

Someday. ...hopefully. In the meantime, I have my reading cut out for me, per links provided by sphairos, above.