If not sure about authenticity, compare with the suttas?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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bharadwaja
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Re: If not sure about authenticity, compare with the suttas?

Post by bharadwaja »

Keeping the issue of PTS dictionary's accuracy aside, what makes you think Citaka and Pitaka are the same word?

Besides, what exactly is your point? Pitaka was never used in the Buddha's era to imply bucketing or sub-categorizing a collection. It only had a literal meaning, and that points to the non existence of an oral tradition in pre-sectarian Buddhism for the canon as a whole.
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Re: If not sure about authenticity, compare with the suttas?

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

arhat wrote:Keeping the issue of PTS dictionary's accuracy aside, what makes you think Citaka and Pitaka are the same word?

Besides, what exactly is your point? Pitaka was never used in the Buddha's era to imply bucketing or sub-categorizing a collection. It only had a literal meaning, and that points to the non existence of an oral tradition in pre-sectarian Buddhism for the canon as a whole.
The word "pitaka" appears nowhere in the PTS Dictionary. It asked if I meant "citaka", which means pile. Which led me to conclude that we sort things into piles, such as when we wash clothing for folding and storage.: shirts, pants, underwear, etc. Ti-pitaka. Three Baskets or Three Piles...same difference.....or, not! :thinking:
Ti-pitaka: ' The Three Baskets', is the name for the 3 main divisions of the Pāli Canon: the Basket of Discipline Vinaya Pitaka, the Basket of Discourses Sutta Pitaka and the Basket ot Philosophy Abhidhamma Pitaka.
Seems like kind of a dopey argument on my part! Right!??? :popcorn:

I was mostly curious about the similarity of the words. I am sure that even Pali has changed in 2500 years. :namaste:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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bharadwaja
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Re: If not sure about authenticity, compare with the suttas?

Post by bharadwaja »

The word "pitaka" appears nowhere in the PTS Dictionary. It asked if I meant "citaka", which means pile. Which led me to conclude that we sort things into piles, such as when we wash clothing for folding and storage.: shirts, pants, underwear, etc. Ti-pitaka. Three Baskets or Three Piles...same difference.....or, not! :thinking:
No you were shooting in the dark.

http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/p ... :2766.pali
I was mostly curious about the similarity of the words. I am sure that even Pali has changed in 2500 years. :namaste:
Just because a dictionary suggests a word with a similar spelling ("prostate" vs. "prostrate") doesn't mean the words are related, even remotely.
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Re: If not sure about authenticity, compare with the suttas?

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Thanks. I wonder why your version has it and mine doesn't? :thinking:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: If not sure about authenticity, compare with the suttas?

Post by bharadwaja »

ancientbuddhism wrote:In the lecture I cited above, Norman presents a well argued theory
I don't think so. His arguments are shaky and one sided. Here are his principal arguments and why I think they are shaky.

He says "There is no agreement among scholars about the date when writing first came into use in India" but this is dubious.

We know for certain that the earliest texts and inscriptions in India are all from the 3rd century BCE, writing cannot have been introduced in India before the 4th century BCE at the earliest. No one claims otherwise.

He says "If writing was in use during the early period of Buddhism, we should have expected to find rules laid down in the Vinaya governing the proper use and storage of
writing implements and materials, in the way in which we find instructions about everything else which concerns a monk’s daily life.
"

This is also shaky because he presumes that monks should have been the earliest writers or copiers of the sutta manuscripts.

Even if we assume they were, it is not necessary that they used writing for everyday use as to necessitate carrying writing implements along with them wherever they went.

Maybe they didn't even carry the written texts around with them but deposited them for safekeeping at reliable places or monasteries. Monasteries cannot have been used for any other principal purpose in Ashoka's time (other than as a storehouse and copying place for manuscripts) since monks in the early monastic tradition never lived in a single place... the entire paribbajaka i.e. wandering mendicant tradition (which some people wrongly call the sramana tradition) was about living a homeless (non-settled) existence. Monks cannot have lived for extended periods in or around a single monastery. But texts had to have a place to be preserved and copied.

Norman says "The vocabulary of the early texts is centred around the words for hearing, from the root śru - to hear, and for speaking from the root vac to speak" and uses this as an argument to prove that there was no word for "reading".

But even Ashoka in his (written) rock edicts says things like "This edict is to be listened/heard every 4 months..." (not "read"). Just because he uses the words listen/hear, it doesnt mean some or all of Ashoka's edicts were once part of an oral tradition before they were finally written down as rock edicts.

Similarly Ashoka in another edict says "These Dhamma texts -- Extracts from the Discipline, the Noble Way of Life, the Fears to Come, the Poem on the Silent Sage, the Discourse on the Pure Life, Upatisa's Questions, and the Advice to Rahula which was spoken by the Buddha concerning false speech -- these Dhamma texts, reverend sirs, I desire that all the monks and nuns may constantly listen to...", and this by the same logic does not mean these suttas that Ashoka was referring to by name and suggesting they be heard, were part of a putative oral tradition.

Norman also says "The word bhāṇaka means speaker, from the root bhaṇ “to speak”, and is another of the items of vocabulary which suggest that the early Buddhists used an oral tradition."

However there are no bhāṇakas mentioned either in the canon itself or anytime within the first 10 centuries of Buddhism. Even Buddhaghosa who is the first to mention a bhāṇaka uses it only once in relevance to the sutta pitaka and does not mention that bhāṇakas followed an independent oral tradition. So to use a single occurence of this word virtually a millenium after the buddha's time (and by redefining it) to argue for a great oral tradition in the Buddha's era is kind of odd..

Norman further says "...but everyone, I think, agrees that during the early period of Buddhism, even if writing was available, all teaching was by oral methods, and the Buddhist scriptures were transmitted orally, as was also the case with the brahmanical texts." So here we come to the crux of the argument, he is relying on dogma (i.e. "everyone agrees so it must be true") to prove that there was an oral tradition, not because there is any evidence for it, but due to the existence of much evidence against it. He also brings the red herring called the 'brahmanical oral tradition' of the vedas to suggest that buddhists must have adopted the brahmanical oral tradition. However the brahmanical oral tradition was specifically designed for the vedas, applying it for the tipitaka was wholly impossible (see below).
ancientbuddhism wrote:do you have evidence for your claim?
I have evidence that bhanakas are not mentioned at all in the canon.

Nor could they have followed the vedic oral tradition for preserving the pali canon intact since the vedic oral tradition depended on significant linguistic tools and grammatical study which is all still practised in India , it is extremely rigorous and time-consuming, it depends very heavily on grammatical study, I am convinced it can never have been used by the sangha (it took decades of vedic study for a brahmin to become fully proficient in the oral tradition).
ancientbuddhism wrote:Lecture VIII – Buddhism and Canonicity – of the same series cited above, discusses tipiṭaka and the idea of a pāli-canon in general. That the tipiṭaka would be considered as representing a physical collection of texts originally, was not mentioned, although the nearest equivalent to ‘canon’ he comes up with is “…Buddhavacana “the words of the Buddha””.
So how were the suttas transmitted if there was no compilation of them i.e. a canon? How did people know which sutta was what (as Ashoka refers to some of the suttas by name)?
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Re: If not sure about authenticity, compare with the suttas?

Post by bharadwaja »

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Thanks. I wonder why your version has it and mine doesn't? :thinking:
The t in Piṭaka has a dot under it, i.e. it is a retroflexed t (that doesn't exist in English), not the dental t which does. You were trying to query with the dental t.
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Re: If not sure about authenticity, compare with the suttas?

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

arhat wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:Thanks. I wonder why your version has it and mine doesn't? :thinking:
The t in Piṭaka has a dot under it, i.e. it is a retroflexed t (that doesn't exist in English), not the dental t which does. You were trying to query with the dental t.
Thanks. I couldn't even see the "retroflex" character due to being poorly sighted at the resolution & enlargement on my computer screen. If you know: "How do I readily get that and other characters on my keyboard?"

Thanks. :namaste:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: If not sure about authenticity, compare with the suttas?

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Found this in the Pali Section :reading: :
पिटक ; piṭaka ; a basket ; a container ; one of the three main division of Pāli Canon .


source: http://dictionary.tamilcube.com/pali-dictionary.aspx

....which I will reference in the future when using Pali---->English Dictionary:

source: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/

Thank you very much for your help! :bow:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
Qianxi
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Re: If not sure about authenticity, compare with the suttas?

Post by Qianxi »

arhat wrote:Norman also says "The word bhāṇaka means speaker, from the root bhaṇ “to speak”, and is another of the items of vocabulary which suggest that the early Buddhists used an oral tradition."

However there are no bhāṇakas mentioned either in the canon itself or anytime within the first 10 centuries of Buddhism. Even Buddhaghosa who is the first to mention a bhāṇaka uses it only once in relevance to the sutta pitaka and does not mention that bhāṇakas followed an independent oral tradition. So to use a single occurence of this word virtually a millenium after the buddha's time (and by redefining it) to argue for a great oral tradition in the Buddha's era is kind of odd..
According to Speaking for Buddhas: Scriptural Commentary in Indian Buddhism by Richard Nance,( un-numbered page + notes ) 'bhāṇaka' is found on 2nd century bce - 1st century ce Prakrit donative inscriptions in Sri Lanka and on a couple of 2nd century bce inscriptions in India. Interestingly I think the Sri Lankan inscriptions imply that the bhāṇakas specialise in one Nikaya (Dighabhanaka, Majjhimabhanaka etc.), but in the Indian inscriptions they are just bhāṇakas without a specialisation.

I think there may be some sources preserved in Chinese that touch on this topic, i'll have a look.

EDIT: In MN 33 and its Chinese parallels http://suttacentral.net/mn33 there's reference to 'those who know the agamas, memorise the dhamma, memorise the vinaya and memorise the matikas' "āgatāgamā dhammadharā vinayadharā mātikādharā" (I may well be wrong with that translation, please correct me.)

There's also talk in the Theravada Vinaya of putting people together who have similar interests: http://suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-bu-vb-ss8
Then the venerable Dabba, the Mallian, being so chosen, assigned one lodging in the same place for those monks who belonged to the same company. For those monks who knew the Suttantas he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: “These will be able to chant over the Suttantas to one another.” For those monks versed in the Vinaya rules, he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: “They will decide upon the Vinaya with one another.” For those monks teaching dhamma he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: “They will discuss dhamma with one another.” For those monks who were musers he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: “They will not disturb one another.”..who lived indulging in low talk and who were athletic...who came in late at night..
The first three kinds of monk sound a bit like the purported bhāṇaka specialisation system, perhaps an early form where instead of specialising in a Nikaya the monks memorised a whole pitaka. I admit the 'musers', the athletes and the night owls don't really fit the pattern.

The Pali for that vinaya passage: http://suttacentral.net/pi/pi-tv-bu-vb-ss8
Sammato saṃghena āyasmā dabbo mallaputto senāsa­na­paññā­pako ca bhattuddesako ca. Khamati saṃghassa, tasmā tuṇhī, evametaṃ dhārayāmī’”ti.

Sammato ca panāyasmā dabbo mallaputto sabhāgānaṃ bhikkhūnaṃ ekajjhaṃ senāsanaṃ paññapeti. Ye te bhikkhū suttantikā tesaṃ ekajjhaṃ senāsanaṃ paññapeti—“te aññamaññaṃ suttantaṃ saṅgāyissantī”ti. Ye te bhikkhū vinayadharā tesaṃ ekajjhaṃ senāsanaṃ paññapeti—“te aññamaññaṃ vinayaṃ vinicchi­nis­santī”ti. Ye te bhikkhū dhammakathikā tesaṃ ekajjhaṃ senāsanaṃ paññapeti—“te aññamaññaṃ dhammaṃ sākacchissantī”ti. Ye te bhikkhū jhāyino tesaṃ ekajjhaṃ senāsanaṃ paññapeti— “te aññamaññaṃ na byābādhissantī”ti. Ye te bhikkhū tiracchā­na­ka­thikā kāya­daḷhi­bahulā viharanti tesampi ekajjhaṃ senāsanaṃ paññapeti—“imāyapime āyasmanto ratiyā acchissantī”ti. Yepi te bhikkhū vikāle āgacchanti tesampi tejodhātuṃ samāpajjitvā teneva ālokena senāsanaṃ paññapeti. Apisu bhikkhū sañcicca vikāle āgacchanti—“mayaṃ āyasmato dabbassa mallaputtassa iddhi­pā­ṭihā­ri­yaṃ passissāmā”ti.
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Re: If not sure about authenticity, compare with the suttas?

Post by Qianxi »

Thinking about it, there's probably something quite significant in the transition from "dhammadharā, vinayadharā, mātikādharā" in the suttas to "suttantikā, vinayadharā, dhammakathikā" in the vinaya.
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Re: If not sure about authenticity, compare with the suttas?

Post by bharadwaja »

Qianxi wrote:'bhāṇaka' is found on 2nd century bce - 1st century ce Prakrit donative inscriptions in Sri Lanka and on a couple of 2nd century bce inscriptions in India. Interestingly I think the Sri Lankan inscriptions imply that the bhāṇakas specialise in one Nikaya (Dighabhanaka, Majjhimabhanaka etc.), but in the Indian inscriptions they are just bhāṇakas without a specialisation.
OK thanks, if that was the case, I don't dispute that the bhanakas existed in early Buddhism, if they did exist in the BC era then I do accept that there may have been a bhanaka system. I dispute the interpretation that they were an independent oral tradition or by implication that they existed in the pre-writing era. The fact that they are found on inscriptions is itself the best proof that Buddhists used writing between 4th and 1st centuries BCE before the canon reached Sri Lanka. Most if not all the earliest writings of India from this era are Buddhist. I do accept that both in the Buddha's era and later, there were people who memorized some suttas verbatim. These would have predominantly been verse sutras, and not prose. Certainly the idea that people in the pre-writing era memorized large prose sutras verbatim, or even entire nikayas or pitakas verbatim, is fanciful.
EDIT: In MN 33 and its Chinese parallels http://suttacentral.net/mn33 there's reference to 'those who know the agamas, memorise the dhamma, memorise the vinaya and memorise the matikas' "āgatāgamā dhammadharā vinayadharā mātikādharā" (I may well be wrong with that translation, please correct me.)


There is also the compound pitaka-dhara found in post canonical texts and dhara (from the verbal root dhr- which means to bear) literally means "bearer" i.e. basket-bearer or container-carrier.
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Re: If not sure about authenticity, compare with the suttas?

Post by ancientbuddhism »

I don't think so. His arguments are shaky and one sided. Here are his principal arguments and why I think they are shaky. ...
The use of writing during this period is not so critical as whether the saṅgha used it. Is there any real evidence to suggest they did?

Also, a dhammadhara as one who remembers the Dhamma is just as figurative as piṭaka for the organisation of a greater collective endeavor of information to remember. Are there any real evidences you know of that indicate the use of dhara or piṭaka with reference to physically bearing and storing these texts? Otherwise your claim, although interesting, is truly as you say 'one sided'.
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Re: If not sure about authenticity, compare with the suttas?

Post by bharadwaja »

ancientbuddhism wrote:The use of writing during this period is not so critical as whether the saṅgha used it. Is there any real evidence to suggest they did?
In fact all the earliest manuscripts of India have some relevance to Buddhism or the other (and some are suttas)... can you explain that?
Are there any real evidences you know of that indicate the use of dhara or piṭaka with reference to physically bearing and storing these texts? Otherwise your claim, although interesting, is truly as you say 'one sided'.
Dhara can be used both for physical (literal) and non-physical "bearing". Piṭaka was never used in a non-physical sense in BCE India, can you prove otherwise?

Here are some quotes from Indian literature for your benefit...

Rāmāyaṇa, 2.33.5.1 - khanitra piṭake cobhe mamānayata gacchataḥ
Mahābhārata 1.57.20.2 - alaṃkṛtāyāḥ piṭakair gandhair mālyaiśca bhūṣaṇaiḥ
Laṅkāvatārasūtra 2.136.2 - tatra sarvakuśalamūlotsargaḥ katamaḥ yaduta bodhisattva piṭaka nikṣepo'bhyākhyānaṃ ca naite sūtrāntā
Aṣṭāṅgahṛdayasaṃhitā 3.13.62.2 piṭakair avakīrṇo 'tipītalohitapāṇḍuraiḥ
Ānandakanda 2.8.35.1 asnigdhaṃ rūkṣamityuktaṃ visphoṭaṃ piṭakaṃ tathā
Revākhaṇḍa 191.23.2 dadrūpiṭakakuṣṭhāni maṇḍalāni vicarcikāḥ //
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Re: If not sure about authenticity, compare with the suttas?

Post by ancientbuddhism »

In fact all the earliest manuscripts of India have some relevance to Buddhism or the other (and some are suttas)... can you explain that?
You would have to explain which of this ‘all’ and what relevance. There is relevance, I have argued as much myself, but that is another topic. The context of the question is evidence of the saṅgha using writing during the period discussed, which if I am understanding you would have been in use already by the First Council?
Dhara can be used both for physical (literal) and non-physical "bearing". Piṭaka was never used in a non-physical sense in BCE India, can you prove otherwise?

Here are some quotes from Indian literature for your benefit...
Actually piṭaka has little relevance (citing non-Buddhist texts does not make that either) to your claim, unless you can show where there is evidence in the EBT's, or paracanonical Buddhist texts referencing that period, that baskets of texts were being stored during the Tathāgata’s career (or just after his parinibbāna and before the first recitation), or hauled to Sri Lanka prior to the written canon we know of .

The use of dhara, with reference to doctrine is within the context of memory e.g.

58. <10> One should cultivate one of great learning, expert in the doctrine (dhammadharaṃ), a noble friend possessed of intelligence. Knowing one’s goals, having dispelled doubt, one chould wander solitary as a rhinoceros horn.” [Norman – The Group of Discourses (Suttanipāta 1.3) p. 7)

The idiom “Bahussutaṃ dhammadharaṃ …” is also at Th. 1035

And unless there is evidence suggesting otherwise, there is no reason to claim this is not with reference to an oral memory.

The practice of catechetical instruction was already known in the Nikāyas e.g. Samiddhi Sutta AN. 9.14, and many of the Tathāgata’s discourses likewise were interrogatory in style.
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Re: If not sure about authenticity, compare with the suttas?

Post by Sylvester »

I thought that the existence and persistence of deictic pronouns in the suttas is taken by scholars to be evidence that the suttas were not set to writing until the oral forms had ossified and it became inviolable?
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