John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Dhammanando
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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby Dhammanando » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:20 am


danieLion
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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby danieLion » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:27 am

This post viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12221&start=40#p186393 and the Topic it's from might be of relevance.
metta

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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby suttametta » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:30 am

Bhante, With respect, I find the reasoning presented to be humorous. I can't take it seriously. It just seems to me that the Buddha's rulings were ad hoc.

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robertk
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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby robertk » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:42 am

Yes they were ad hoc. That is the way the Vinaya was set , the Buddha waited until the right occasion to set or alter the rules.

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daverupa
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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby daverupa » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:49 am

While I don't think this was mentioned in the OP, nevertheless is it not the case that the variegated Sutta transmissions we have differ less than the variegated Vinaya transmissions? I'm half-remembering a footnote in a Gombrich book to the effect that, while he could accept the early provenance of much of the Big Four Nikayas, the Vinaya was an altogether different matter (most of the patimokkha being an exception), but he didn't develop the comment.

I've read some Mula-Sarvastivada Vinaya translations by Schopen which depict the Buddha giving advice on what amounts to money loans at monasteries, which seems strikingly out of place. The Councils were also mostly Vinaya disputes, yes? It all begins to support the idea that scholastic differences are strongly represented in the Vinayas, but not so much in the Suttas...

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mikenz66
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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:10 pm

Interesting point Dave.

I thought Schopen was dealing with a much later vinaya.
Ven Sujato has compiled various criticisms of Schopen's arguments and related issues:
http://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/ ... y-schopen/
http://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/ ... some-news/

:anjali:
Mike

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manas
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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby manas » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:04 am

Last edited by manas on Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Alex123
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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:09 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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tiltbillings
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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:15 am


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Alex123
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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:23 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Hanzze
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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:57 am

But it also mentioned in a Sutta that Vinaya will decay after the Dhamma has disappeared and that would be a very indices of a maybe present situations and tendencies. A conclusion "We are much into Dhamma and therefore we reduce the Vinaya" or "because we are much into Dhamma we can reduce or deny it" could be maybe misinterpretation from this sutta.

I guess the Vinaya is a very well measuring unit to identify "a counterfeit of the true Dhamma" and we can see that among many sects (where preaching and actions are much controversies).
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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mikenz66
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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:19 am

Members,

Could we please get back to the topic of this thread, that was started to examine the issues involved in determining which parts of the Canon (if any) are likely to be the word of the Buddha.

:anjali:
Mike

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mikenz66
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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:21 am


danieLion
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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby danieLion » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:19 am


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Kim OHara
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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby Kim OHara » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:55 am


danieLion
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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby danieLion » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:14 pm


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daverupa
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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby daverupa » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:43 pm

So do we correctly trace extant Theravada Vinaya to the abhidhammic period, and only portions to a pre-sectarian period (e.g. patimokkha, some Khandhaka)?

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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby danieLion » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:21 am


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Dmytro
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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby Dmytro » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:15 am



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tiltbillings
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Re: John Peacock: Will the Real Buddha Please Stand Up?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:29 am



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