Mahayana split
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:58 pm
Could someone tell me the exact reason why the mahayana was invented and why it decided to split from theravada? Or is this too open to debate? Was Zen the first Mahayana tradition?
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It's a HUGE topic, Gregorious -- one which could fill up hundreds of pages. And the bottom line is no one is really certain how it got started. The current thinking, as I understand it, is that Mahayana probably first developed as a sort of specialized focus among monastics during the centuries after the Buddha's parinibbana. Some of these monastics had deep samadhi (meditation) experiences which may have provided the basis for parts of the Mahayana scriptures.greggorious wrote:Could someone tell me the exact reason why the mahayana was invented and why it decided to split from theravada? Or is this too open to debate? Was Zen the first Mahayana tradition?
It may also be worth asking "how was Theravada invented"? My understanding is that as a distinct school it originated around the time of King Asoka, who not only sponsored and promoted Buddhism but sought to reform it -- in some cases, expelling monks who held what he deemed to be unorthodox teachings.The Mahāsāṃghikas advocated the transcendental and supramundane nature of the buddhas and bodhisattvas, and the fallibility of arhats. They held that the teachings of the Buddha were to be understood as having two principle levels of truth: a relative or conventional (Skt. saṃvṛti) truth, and the absolute or ultimate (Skt. paramārtha) truth. For the Mahāsaṃghika branch of Buddhism, the final and ultimate meaning of the Buddha's teachings was "beyond words", and words were merely the conventional exposition of the Dharma.
A doctrine ascribed to the Mahāsāṃghikas is, "The power of the tathāgatas is unlimited, and the life of the buddhas is unlimited." According to Guang Xing, two main aspects of the Buddha can be seen in Mahāsāṃghika teachings: the true Buddha who is omniscient and omnipotent, and the manifested forms through which he liberates sentient beings through skillful means. For the Mahāsaṃghikas, the historical Gautama Buddha was one of these transformation bodies (Skt. nirmāṇakāya), while the essential real Buddha is equated with the Dharmakāya.
The Mahayana wasn't ever really "invented". Rather, it was a fairly natural development from the doctrines, practices and ideals of probably a number of the early schools that formed in Buddhism in the first few centuries after the Buddha's parinirvana. It never "split from the Theravada", but rather owes much more to other early schools, such as the Mahasamghika schools, the Dharmaguptaka, and the very popular Sarvastivadin and Vatsiputriya movements. It was only later that it then traveled to Sri Lanka where it probably first met the Theravada (= Mahavihara tradition).greggorious wrote:Could someone tell me the exact reason why the mahayana was invented and why it decided to split from theravada? Or is this too open to debate? Was Zen the first Mahayana tradition?
The seeds of the Mahayana movement were apparently planted by the Buddha himself, who had repeatedly refused to provide definitive answers to the two most burning questions that people were constantly asking him:greggorious wrote:Could someone tell me the exact reason why the mahayana was invented and why it decided to split from theravada? Or is this too open to debate? Was Zen the first Mahayana tradition?
Source for this?alexbunardzic wrote:The seeds of the Mahayana movement were apparently planted by the Buddha himself, who had repeatedly refused to provide definitive answers to the two most burning questions that people were constantly asking him:greggorious wrote:Could someone tell me the exact reason why the mahayana was invented and why it decided to split from theravada? Or is this too open to debate? Was Zen the first Mahayana tradition?
1. Who is the Buddha's chosen heir (i.e. who will get appointed by the Buddha as a rightful successor to continue the teaching after the Buddha's death)?
2. What happens to the Buddha/Tathagata after he dies?
The Buddha never appointed his successor, so naturally there is no source specifying who his successor was. Lack of source does not automatically imply that he did appoint his successor.tiltbillings wrote:Source for this?alexbunardzic wrote:The seeds of the Mahayana movement were apparently planted by the Buddha himself, who had repeatedly refused to provide definitive answers to the two most burning questions that people were constantly asking him:greggorious wrote:Could someone tell me the exact reason why the mahayana was invented and why it decided to split from theravada? Or is this too open to debate? Was Zen the first Mahayana tradition?
1. Who is the Buddha's chosen heir (i.e. who will get appointed by the Buddha as a rightful successor to continue the teaching after the Buddha's death)?
2. What happens to the Buddha/Tathagata after he dies?
To clarify: When I asked for your source, I was asking for your source for your claim that this is what drove the formation of the Mahayana.alexbunardzic wrote:The seeds of the Mahayana movement were apparently planted by the Buddha himself, who had repeatedly refused to provide definitive answers to the two most burning questions that people were constantly asking him:greggorious wrote:Could someone tell me the exact reason why the mahayana was invented and why it decided to split from theravada? Or is this too open to debate? Was Zen the first Mahayana tradition?
1. Who is the Buddha's chosen heir (i.e. who will get appointed by the Buddha as a rightful successor to continue the teaching after the Buddha's death)?
2. What happens to the Buddha/Tathagata after he dies?
Ah, gotcha! My source is some Gypsy woman (at least she looked like she could be Gypsy, but my sources on that are shaky, so let's just leave it at that for now). I ran into her many moons ago at a country fair and she ended up reading my palm (for a nominal fee, of course).tiltbillings wrote:To clarify: When I asked for your source, I was asking for your source for your claim that this is what drove the formation of the Mahayana.alexbunardzic wrote:The seeds of the Mahayana movement were apparently planted by the Buddha himself, who had repeatedly refused to provide definitive answers to the two most burning questions that people were constantly asking him:greggorious wrote:Could someone tell me the exact reason why the mahayana was invented and why it decided to split from theravada? Or is this too open to debate? Was Zen the first Mahayana tradition?
1. Who is the Buddha's chosen heir (i.e. who will get appointed by the Buddha as a rightful successor to continue the teaching after the Buddha's death)?
2. What happens to the Buddha/Tathagata after he dies?
It was a serious question I asked, and your response and your 2 part claim seems to reflect a serious lack of understanding of early Buddhist history. So, it is seriousness all around.alexbunardzic wrote:Ah, gotcha! My source is some Gypsy woman (at least she looked like she could be Gypsy, but my sources on that are shaky, so let's just leave it at that for now). I ran into her many moons ago at a country fair and she ended up reading my palm (for a nominal fee, of course).
The Buddha did specify his successor. It is the Dhamma.alexbunardzic wrote: The Buddha never appointed his successor, so naturally there is no source specifying who his successor was. Lack of source does not automatically imply that he did appoint his successor.
Mahayana cannot decide anything and decision occurs upon felt resistance. The experience of resistance may be shared by several individuals leading to collective intention (decision, volition).greggorious wrote:Could someone tell me the exact reason why the mahayana was invented and why it decided to split from theravada?