Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Where we gather to focus on a single discourse or thematic collection from the Sutta Piṭaka (new selection every two weeks)
User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 4528
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Dan74 »

Would it be fair to put it simply that mindfulness as recollection (of the Right View, of what is wholesome and unwholesome, of the Dhamma in general) forms the basis of practice much like sila, while mindfulness as bare awareness form the foundation of samadhi - discerning it as it is?

Naively I thought this is uncontroversial in all Buddhist schools, including Theravada. :shrug:

If Dmytro or others feel that many of us have gone wrong in our practice, I would appreciate a thread addressing Ven Analayo's exposition, both scripturally and substantially.

PS Thank you, Tilt, for attaching the scans of Ven Analayo's book - it's much like what I've been taught.

PPS I recall our old friend, Element, coming to ZFI and telling that we've all gone terribly wrong with our understanding of mindfulness and it is just about recollection. But we won't hold that against this thesis, will we.
_/|\_
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by alan »

Focusing on "bare awareness" without a firm basis of concentration seems like a fruitless task.
Can we equate mindfulness, as a technique, with the realization of bare awareness?
For the purpose of the discussion I'll assume "bare awareness" is a state beyond what we can normally achieve through normal mindfulness, and that it is not a necessary outcome of mindfulness practice.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:Would it be fair to put it simply that mindfulness as recollection (of the Right View, of what is wholesome and unwholesome, of the Dhamma in general) forms the basis of practice much like sila, while mindfulness as bare awareness form the foundation of samadhi - discerning it as it is?

Naively I thought this is uncontroversial in all Buddhist schools, including Theravada. :shrug:

If Dmytro or others feel that many of us have gone wrong in our practice, I would appreciate a thread addressing Ven Analayo's exposition, both scripturally and substantially.

PS Thank you, Tilt, for attaching the scans of Ven Analayo's book - it's much like what I've been taught.
You are welcome. The problem is there are a those who are rather doggedly anti-vipassana, who subscribe to a very narrow and limited take on these things.

Here we have a a carefully documented approach by Ven Analayo, plus supporting stuff from Vens Bodhi and Nyanaponika. Ven Analayo gives a rather subtle and sophisticated argument for his position; however, the negative response has had all the subtlety of a ball-peen hammer.

If one wants to offer a negative critique of Ven Analayto and the idea of bare attention, then please do so, but do so in terms a carefully worked out argument that accurately reflects Vens Analayo, Bodhi and Nyanaponika's points of view. So far here, that has not happened. All we gotten are straw man arguments from which no one learns anything.

The thing is Vens Analayo, Bodhi and Nyanaponika arguments concerning bare attention are reasonable in terms of the suttas and in terms of the Theravada tradition as a whole, and more importantly they are talking about a practice that works in terms of the Buddha-Dhamma.

For those who do not like Ven Analayo's position, your objections are noted, and -- as I have said a number of times already -- if you wish to discuss these objections further, start a new thread.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by ground »

Dan74 wrote:If Dmytro or others feel that many of us have gone wrong in our practice, ...
I think this thread is about the interpretation of a sutta called "Satipatthana sutta". Whether one's practice is right or wrong is not the topic of this thread but depends on one's own assessment with reference to one's own individual goals.

Kind regards
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Focusing on "bare awareness" without a firm basis of concentration seems like a fruitless task.
The cultivation of bare attention cultivates concentration. One cannot really have bare attention, as defined by Vens Analayo, Bodhi and Nyanaponika, without concentration.
Can we equate mindfulness, as a technique, with the realization of bare awareness?
You'll need to define your terms here.
For the purpose of the discussion I'll assume "bare awareness" is a state beyond what we can normally achieve through normal mindfulness, and that it is not a necessary outcome of mindfulness practice.
Again, you'll need to define your terms here. As for what I mean by bare attention, please see the Ven Analayo PDF, the Ven Nyanaponika link and the bit I quoted from Ven Bodhi:


http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p160144" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 40#p160162" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote:
Dan74 wrote:If Dmytro or others feel that many of us have gone wrong in our practice, ...
I think this thread is about the interpretation of a sutta called "Satipatthana sutta".
To talk about this sutta it would likely necessitate talking about how one would practice it. What we are looking at is how one scholar/practitioner bhikkhu understands it in terms of the Pali tradition. Obviously there are differing points of view, and they can be discussed in detail in new threads devoted to those points of view.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by alan »

Is the cultivation of bare attention the best way to cultivate concentration?
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Is the cultivation of bare attention the best way to cultivate concentration?
It is a way of cultivating concentration and it is a way of cultivating the requistes for insight.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by ground »

tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Dan74 wrote:If Dmytro or others feel that many of us have gone wrong in our practice, ...
I think this thread is about the interpretation of a sutta called "Satipatthana sutta".
... What we are looking at is how one scholar/practitioner bhikkhu understands it in terms of the Pali tradition.
...
So textual evidence should suffice and should be the only concern. Otherwise it would be about whether one feels that this scholar is right or wrong depending on one's own success of practicing according to one's own understanding or depending on one's own likings.


Kind regards
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote:So textual evidence should suffice and should be the only concern.
Yes, since the book is a textual exploration of the the sutta in question.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
dhamma follower
Posts: 354
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:48 am

Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by dhamma follower »

daverupa wrote:
SN 48.10 wrote:"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.
Well found, Daverupa!

So there are two aspects of sati:

1.sati that is quite commonplace in everyone -in varying degrees, independently from being a follower of the Buddha's teaching.
2. sati that is defined as samma sati, which is the one described in satipathanna and in the second part of the sutta above. It is this second aspect of sati that of particular interest for practitioners, isn't it?

Regards,
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Assaji »

Hi Manasikara,
manasikara wrote: I know what you are getting at in that there is no direct instruction as in "abandon sensual desire!" etc, but maybe it's assumed that we already know that this needs to be done. It seems to be implied here, in any case (afaics), by ending with "...that has been abandoned".
Indeed, it is implied in Satipatthana sutta. The suttas like Dvedhavitakka sutta are much more explicit in this regard, describing the full range of practice.

:anjali:
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Assaji »

Hi Daverupa,
SN 48.10 wrote:"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.
For the sake of clarity, I would like to say that the passage you quoted:

Katamañca bhikkhave, satindriyaṃ: idha bhikkhave, ariyasāvako satimā hoti paramena satinepakkena sannāgato cirakatampi cirabhāsitampi saritā anussaritā. So kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Citte cittānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Idaṃ vuccati bhikkhave, satindriyaṃ.

consists of two parts. One is the definition of sati as a faculty, the same as in the preceding sutta, SN 48.9:

"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago."

In addition to such definition, this sutta also defines the ways of establishing sati, namely, four satipatthana.
The words "remains focused" don't define sati here, they refer to what one does when sati is already established.
User avatar
James the Giant
Posts: 791
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:41 am

Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by James the Giant »

I wonder when Samvega will be along to get us back on topic with the next installment?
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

James the Giant wrote:I wonder when Samvega will be along to get us back on topic with the next installment?
One can hope soon.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Post Reply