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MN Session 8 - MN 41. Sāleyyaka Sutta: The Brahmins of Sālā - Dhamma Wheel

MN Session 8 - MN 41. Sāleyyaka Sutta: The Brahmins of Sālā

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MN Session 8 - MN 41. Sāleyyaka Sutta: The Brahmins of Sālā

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:58 pm

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: MN Session 8 - MN 41. Sāleyyaka Sutta: The Brahmins of Sālā

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:33 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: MN Session 8 - MN 41. Sāleyyaka Sutta: The Brahmins of Sālā

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:52 am


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Re: MN Session 8 - MN 41. Sāleyyaka Sutta: The Brahmins of Sālā

Postby Lazy_eye » Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:11 am

Based on this sutta, what is the relative likelihood of being reborn as a human (or better?). I can see both "optimistic" and "pessimistic" takes on this.

The optimistic view would be that we've got a fairly good shot provided we live virtuously and avoid bloody-handed behavior, thievery, sexual misconduct, etc. The pessimistic view would be that "righteous conduct" is difficult if nigh impossible for most people to achieve, since practically everyone is guilty of covetous thoughts or wrong speech at one time or another.

The pessimist might point out that human birth is exceedingly rare, according to the Buddha; the optimist might say this rarity has to be measured against the vast numbers of beings in the universe, and that once you get to the human realm in the first place, you should be in a relatively good position to stay there (as long as you lead a reasonably decent life). Humans certainly seem better positioned than, say, animals or hungry ghosts, who lack the capacity for moral decisions.

I've heard it said that most people are reborn as humans, and I've also heard that practically no one is reborn as human. Which view is more correct?

Metta,
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Re: MN Session 8 - MN 41. Sāleyyaka Sutta: The Brahmins of Sālā

Postby Dhammanando » Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:34 am


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Re: MN Session 8 - MN 41. Sāleyyaka Sutta: The Brahmins of Sālā

Postby Lazy_eye » Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:46 am

Last edited by Lazy_eye on Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MN Session 8 - MN 41. Sāleyyaka Sutta: The Brahmins of Sālā

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:02 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: MN Session 8 - MN 41. Sāleyyaka Sutta: The Brahmins of Sālā

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:42 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: MN Session 8 - MN 41. Sāleyyaka Sutta: The Brahmins of Sālā

Postby Abandon » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:12 pm

Yes, the idea of the 7 days limit on laylife after ordination was introduced in the Visudhimagga so far as I know. It has no Sutta counterpart. The gist of the idea is that without a means to gain food you would not survive - no supernatural reasons are given for the spontaneous death.

This sutta, as many many other suttas, has a relevance with the dependent origination teaching that many teachers have tried to explain as happening in the space of an instant. In this interpretation jati means to be 'reborn' into the present moment, as one who is happy, angry, sad etc... Yet, when we see jati described in such suttas as above, it is patently clear that what is meant is literally rebirth in the heaven\hell (etc.) realms.

Also, it has been dawning on me over recent years that practically every time the Suttas talk about karma, they refer to modes (and conditions) of rebirth. This is not the same emphasis that karma is usually given in 'pop' Buddhism eg. your car is stolen due to your karma. Granted, conditions of rebirth last through life - for instance one is a rich person if previously generous, one is a leader if one was previously respectful etc.. Yet, Karma seems to really have very little to do with day to day actions.

Therefore, though Karma refers to action, and vipaka the results, I do not see that we have to generalise to mean ALL action - it practically always refers as in the quoted sutta to rebirth. :juggling:

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Re: MN Session 8 - MN 41. Sāleyyaka Sutta: The Brahmins of Sālā

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:01 pm

Hi Retro, Abandon,
It was only directed as it was Dhammanando's post which sparked the thought.
I have a feeling there may be a sutta "passing reference" as this topic has come up in conversations I have had before, and I am sure one (maybe more) have been mentioned? I'll have to ask my friends I had the conversations with! I have a feeling it is in the monk or nuns sections? or it may of been in a commentary to those and it was mistaken from memory for being in, or the meaning of the sutta?
maybe renunciate is given a different emphasis in meaning when referring to Lay Arahants, and the time frame for ordination or death is more to do with how long it takes for the Arahant to decide to teach or leave the world behind completely? take their seat as which Buddha they are if you will? nothing supernatural because the body can last for a long time without or with very little food which would of been known by people then, with the starvation practices which the Buddha underwent and others, they just go off into the forest never to be seen again to dwell somewhere in solitude?
WM
Manapa


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: MN Session 8 - MN 41. Sāleyyaka Sutta: The Brahmins of Sālā

Postby Dhammanando » Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:05 pm


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Re: MN Session 8 - MN 41. Sāleyyaka Sutta: The Brahmins of Sālā

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:07 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: MN Session 8 - MN 41. Sāleyyaka Sutta: The Brahmins of Sālā

Postby Dhammanando » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:02 pm


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Re: MN Session 8 - MN 41. Sāleyyaka Sutta: The Brahmins of Sālā

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:13 pm

Hi Bhante

don't know why but I took mental fetters or his material possessions to both be mental in this instance, and the material possesions to be attachment for worldly life in contrast to the Bhikkhu's life.
wonder what train of thought was going on in the background of my mind?
:jumping:
:anjali:


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: MN Session 8 - MN 41. Sāleyyaka Sutta: The Brahmins of Sālā

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:50 am

i'm going to go ahead and shut this one, as it's time for this weeks sutta!
i'm pretty sure ven. Dhammanando has the ability to respond if he thinks there's more to add.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat


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