SN 35.95: Malunkyaputta Sutta

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Re: SN 35.95: Malunkyaputta Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Sun May 22, 2011 5:23 am

Thanks Sylvester,

Sylvester wrote:The hypothetical "manufacturing" of the external reality, in my view, is discounted by the explanation of the process of cognition in MN 28. What accounts for contact is tajja samannahara, plus the indriya and ayatana. Whether or not tajja samannahara is in place, MN 28 posits that the ayatana can "be"; this independance of the ayatana from tajja samannahara is what gives the external some objective reality, and not an exclusively subjective one.

It would be helpful to give translations of some of those Pali terms (such as tajja samannahara) when you use them. Some of us are not so fluent...

Here's a link to MN28: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
I guess you mean passages like:
"And if other people attack the monk in ways that are undesirable, displeasing, & disagreeable — through contact with fists, contact with stones, contact with sticks, or contact with knives — the monk discerns that 'This body is of such a nature that contacts with fists come, contacts with stones come, contacts with sticks come, & contacts with knives come. Now the Blessed One has said, in his exhortation of the simile of the saw [MN 21], "Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding." So my persistence will be aroused & untiring, my mindfulness established & unconfused, my body calm & unaroused, my mind centered & unified. And now let contact with fists come to this body, let contact with stones, with sticks, with knives come to this body, for this is how the Buddha's bidding is done.'


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Re: SN 35.95: Malunkyaputta Sutta

Postby Sylvester » Sun May 22, 2011 6:34 am

mikenz66 wrote:It would be helpful to give translations of some of those Pali terms (such as tajja samannahara) when you use them. Some of us are not so fluent...




Oops :embarassed: Sorry about the Pali-gush. Here's the passage from MN 28 that describes the cognitive process and tajja samannahara's role in it -

Now if internally the eye is intact but externally forms do not come into range, nor is there a corresponding engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. If internally the eye is intact and externally forms come into range, but there is no corresponding engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. But when internally the eye is intact and externally forms come into range, and there is a corresponding engagement, then there is the appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness.
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Re: SN 35.95: Malunkyaputta Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 22, 2011 6:40 am

Greetings,

Interesting extract from MN 28 (thanks Sylvester)... a good reminder, if ever one was needed, not to take key Dhamma terms at simplistic face value.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: SN 35.95: Malunkyaputta Sutta

Postby Sylvester » Sun May 22, 2011 7:57 am

Just another short note to address something interesting which pulga raised in respect of Berkeley's "esse est percipi" axiom of Idealism. He's raised it before in this thread, citing one of Ven Nanavira's letters - viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8033&hilit=Bahiya&start=40#p126619

I'm glad that Ven Nanavira does not lean towards Berkeley's Idealism, where it concerns the external world. I think where Idealism has a proper footing in Buddhism is probably the internal world - the mental khandhas. Those 4 states only arise with contact as condition (although MN 43 accords the "conjoined"/sahagata status to consciousness, feelings and perception, and omits intention). Contact, as an event made up of sense, object and consciousness, seems rather distinct from the internal experience(s) of the exterior, unless one subscribes to the Abhidhammic treatment of "phassa" as another cetasika/mental concommitant...

Some older ruminations about the intent for this sutta and the Bahiya Sutta, ie appropriation and the anusayas -
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8033&start=20#p126574
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Re: SN 35.95: Malunkyaputta Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Sun May 22, 2011 8:33 am

Thanks for the cross-references Sylvester.

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Re: SN 35.95: Malunkyaputta Sutta

Postby Sylvester » Sun May 22, 2011 11:48 am

Something else interesting to note about SN 35.95's language "in the seen will only be the seen". Have you seen this construction anywhere else?

Well then, Maalu"nkyaputta, in things seen, heard, sensed, cognized: in the seen there will only be the seen, in the heard only the heard, in the sensed only the sensed, in the cognized only the cognized... Then, Maalu"nkyaputta, there will be no 'thereby' for you. Having no 'thereby' you have no 'there.' Having no 'there,' Maalu"nkyaputta, there is for you neither this world, nor the next, nor anywhere in between. That in itself is the end of suffering. (Walshe)

Ettha ca te, mālukyaputta, diṭṭhasutamutaviññātabbesu dhammesu diṭṭhe diṭṭhamattaṃ bhavissati, sute sutamattaṃ bhavissati, mute mutamattaṃ bhavissati, viññāte viññātamattaṃ bhavissati. Yato kho te, mālukyaputta, diṭṭhasutamutaviññātabbesu dhammesu diṭṭhe diṭṭhamattaṃ bhavissati, sute sutamattaṃ bhavissati, mute mutamattaṃ bhavissati, viññāte viññātamattaṃ bhavissati; tato tvaṃ, mālukyaputta, na tena. Yato tvaṃ, mālukyaputta, na tena; tato tvaṃ, mālukyaputta, na tattha. Yato tvaṃ, mālukyaputta, na tattha; tato tvaṃ, mālukyaputta, nevidha, na huraṃ, na ubhayamantarena. Esevanto dukkhassā ti.

(note all the locative constructions of seen, heard, sensed and cognised)


In all of the Satipatthana Suttas, the same use of the locative case is applied to how one is supposed to contemplate the body, feelings, mind and states -

And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? (Ven T)

Kathañca, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati?


Unlike Walshe who translates the locative case to mean "in the seen...", I follow Warder and Ven Thanissaro in reading the locative in SN 35.95 as meaning "with reference to the seen...". However, I'm not sure why Ven Thanissaro renders the Satipatthana Sutta's locative for the objects to read as "in".

So, do you think SN 35.95 and the Bahiya Sutta look just like satipatthana instructions?
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Re: SN 35.95: Malunkyaputta Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Sun May 22, 2011 8:44 pm

Sylvester wrote:So, do you think SN 35.95 and the Bahiya Sutta look just like satipatthana instructions?

Sorry, can't help you with the tricky Pali stuff, but, of course, it's very common to wheel out this Sutta (well, usually the Bahiya version) as an example of how one should be practising satipatthana.

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