Snp 5.14 Posala-manava-puccha

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Snp 5.14 Posala-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:01 pm

Snp 5.14 PTS: Sn 1112-1115
Posala-manava-puccha: Posala's Questions
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu


How does one develop insight after mastering the higher levels of jhana?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[Posala:]
To one who reveals the past — unperturbed, his doubts cut through — who has gone to the beyond of all phenomena, I've come with a question. I ask the Sakyan about the knowledge [1] of one devoid of perception of forms, who has abandoned all the body, every body, who sees, within & without, 'There is nothing': How is he to be led further on?

[The Buddha:]
The Tathagata, knowing directly all stations of consciousness, [2] knows for one stationed in them release & the steps leading there. Knowing directly the origin of nothingness to be the fetter of delight, one then sees there clearly. That's his genuine knowledge — the brahman who has lived to fulfillment.

Notes

1. Posala's question concerning the knowledge of the person in the dimension of nothingness has a double meaning: He is asking about the Buddha's knowledge about that person, and also what a person in that dimension of attainment should do to develop his/her knowledge even further. The Buddha's answer deals with the question in both its senses.

2. On the seven stations of consciousness, see DN 15. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html The dimension of nothingness, discussed in this dialogue, is the seventh and most refined.

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Re: Snp 5.14 Posala-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:04 pm

Snp 5.14 PTS: Sn 1112-1115
Posala-manava-puccha: Posala's Questions
Anandajoti Bhikkhu


http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... avaggo.pdf
Listen at: http://www.archive.org/details/The-Way-to-the-Beyond

(To) the one who points out the past, said venerable Posàla,
the unmoved one, who has cut off doubt,
who is perfect in everything, I have come in need with a question:
For the one in whom perception of form has ended,
(who), on the inside and outside is seeing `there is nothing whatsoever', [1]
I ask about (his) knowledge, Sakyan, how is such a one led further?

All the stations of consciousness, Posàla, said the Gracious One,
the Realised One knows,
he knows where that one stands, what he is intent on, what he is going towards.
Having known the origin of nothingness, and that enjoyment is called a fetter,
knowing deeply that it is so, and then having insight into this:
this is real knowedge for him, for the brahmin who is accomplished.

[1] This again refers to the sphere of nothingness (àkiÿcaÿÿàyatanaü).

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Re: Snp 5.14 Posala-manava-puccha

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:14 am

Greetings,

Does anyone know what to make of this...?

Knowing directly the origin of nothingness to be the fetter of delight, one then sees there clearly.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Through corruption of the Dhamma comes corruption of the discipline, and from corruption of the discipline comes corruption of the Dhamma. This is the first future danger as yet unarisen that will arise in the future. You should recognize it and make an effort to prevent it. (AN 5.79)

"If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good." - Thomas J. Watson

Never again...

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Re: Snp 5.14 Posala-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:20 am

Perhaps Ven Anandajoti's translation is clearer. The formless attainments can be enjoyable and therefore an attachment. One needs to go beyond that by insight.

Mike

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Re: Snp 5.14 Posala-manava-puccha

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:10 pm

Greetings Mike,

Thanks - that makes a bit more sense now... I was taking nothingness literally, rather than as a description of a conditioned formless jhana.

Since literal nothingness is not formed/fashioned (i.e. sankhata) I didn't see how it could be associated with fetters.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Through corruption of the Dhamma comes corruption of the discipline, and from corruption of the discipline comes corruption of the Dhamma. This is the first future danger as yet unarisen that will arise in the future. You should recognize it and make an effort to prevent it. (AN 5.79)

"If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good." - Thomas J. Watson

Never again...

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Re: Snp 5.14 Posala-manava-puccha

Postby kirk5a » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:25 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

Thanks - that makes a bit more sense now... I was taking nothingness literally, rather than as a description of a conditioned formless jhana.

Since literal nothingness is not formed/fashioned (i.e. sankhata) I didn't see how it could be associated with fetters.

Metta,
Retro. :)

The Buddha did describe an "an inter-cosmic[1] void, an unrestrained darkness, a pitch-black darkness, where even the light of the sun & moon — so mighty, so powerful — doesn't reach." I think that's meant to be taken literally. Was he referring to black holes maybe? :smile: Other than that, is "literal nothingness" found in the suttas?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Snp 5.14 Posala-manava-puccha

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:14 am

Greetings Kirk,

kirk5a wrote:Other than that, is "literal nothingness" found in the suttas?

No, but on first reading that's what I thought it was pointing to... hence my confusion.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Through corruption of the Dhamma comes corruption of the discipline, and from corruption of the discipline comes corruption of the Dhamma. This is the first future danger as yet unarisen that will arise in the future. You should recognize it and make an effort to prevent it. (AN 5.79)

"If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good." - Thomas J. Watson

Never again...

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Re: Snp 5.14 Posala-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:21 am

Commentary from Bhikkhu Nanananda, Nibbana Sermon 16
http://lirs.ru/do/sutra/Nibbana_Sermons,Nanananda.pdf

A clearer instance comes in the Posālamāṇavapucchā of
the Pārāyanavagga in the Sutta Nipāta, namely the term vib-
hūtarūpasaññissa, occurring in one of the verses there.
Vibhåta-råpa-saÿÿissa, sabba-kàyappahàyino,
For the one in whom perception of form has ended,
ajjhattaÿ-ca bahiddhà ca n' atthi kiÿcã ti passato,
(who), on the inside and outside is seeing `there is nothing whatsoever',
ÿàõaü Sakkànupucchàmi, kathaü neyyo tathàvidho?
I ask about (his) knowledge, Sakyan, how is such a one led further?"

The canonical commentary Cūḷaniddesa, which the commentator
often draws upon, also paraphrases the term with the words vi-
gatā, atikkantā, samatikkantā, vītivattā, "gone, transcended,
fully transcended, and superseded".

So the word vibhūta in the passage in question definitely
implies the absence of all those perceptions in that concentra-
tion. This, then, is a unique concentration. It has none of the
objects which the worldlings usually associate with a level of
concentration.


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