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MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Each week we study and discuss a different sutta or Dhamma text

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MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:03 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:16 am

It might be useful to compare this Sutta with these two Suttas addressed to an Actor and a Warrior repectively:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

It's notable that having a deluded idea that what one is doing is a good thing is worse than just doing dumb stuff...

Mike

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Re: MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:37 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Postby appicchato » Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:23 am


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Re: MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Postby jcsuperstar » Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:21 am

i have no idea how to answer your question retro, but once i heard robert thurman say tibetan buddhists believe that if youre someone who is say scared of things, like maybe agoraphobic, than when youre looking for your next life you end up like a beetle or clam or something cause youre looking to hide to have armor etc.

so maybe you get the rebirth as a dog because you look for traits you know?

i dont know.... if kamma is voilition it means in a way we pick our births since they are dependant on kamma. so maybe it works sort of similar to this?

i never really think about these things.. and i think any good teacher would just tell you how to do good now, because doing good now means your next birth should be fine...
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:23 am

Greetings venerable Appicchato,

You make a good point. I think in much talk about kamma, specific examples are taken too literally as either general rules or fixed destinies, when it's more accurate to speak in terms of bright/dark or good/bad kamma and whether such kamma tend towards favourable or unfavourable destinations.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Postby Lazy_eye » Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:51 pm

It would be fascinating to know more about why the dog duty/ox duty folks thought their practices were beneficial -- what the rationale was. Since the sutta seems in part to be a refutation of a particular view, knowing this context might deepen our understanding of the Buddha's teaching here.

Generally, what I take from it is the message that view, intention and effort need to be lined up correctly. Quite simply, it's a waste of time to focus one's spiritual practice on becoming more and more like an animal. If you throw some questionable intention in there too (the desire to become like a god), the situation becomes even worse. Delusion leads to more delusion and the result is mental anguish, leading to hell.

In this case, the ascetics were probably only harming themselves. As I think we can see from many contemporary examples, though, misaligned spiritual practices can have terrible consequences.

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Re: MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Postby Tex » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:23 pm

"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus

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Re: MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:30 pm


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Re: MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Postby Tex » Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:53 pm

Ahhh, I think I see -- so what he's saying is that dog duty can only lead one to an animal rebirth at best, and only then if the ascetic understands that animal rebirth is all that is attainable through that practice, not a heavenly rebirth. And if one practices dog duty under the delusion that it will lead to a heavenly rebirth it's that added delusion that directs the rebirth to hell instead of to the animal realm. Is that about right?
"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus

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Re: MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:33 pm


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Re: MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Postby Tex » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:43 pm

Makes sense, thanks for clarifying, Bhante.
"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus

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Re: MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:13 am

this sutta seems to get quoted a lot, i'm glad we got to take a look at it, clear up any misconceptions etc. :anjali:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Postby phil » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:33 am

Hi all

I was a bit confused when I heard Bhikkhu Bodhi talk about this sutta in his MN series. He said the following re the way volitions accumulate: "This accumulation of mental energy, habit energy, volitional energy - this accumulation of energy - becomes a tremendous force, which at the time of death projects the stream of consciousness into a new realm of being, a new realm of existence in conformity with the ethical quality of the volitions themselves."

So in the sutta we have the Buddha telling the ascetic that if one lives as a dog, one will be reborn as a dog - the general accumulation of volition has a say. And I think this is comforting to those of us who place a lot of emphasis on watching our behaviour, behaving in a morally wholesome way in the hope of a favourable rebirth. (It seems to me that many suttas addressed to and/or concerning householders have such an emphasis.)

But having discussed from an Abhidhamma point of view with some people, it sounds like it could be any one citta that decides rebirth, from the present or any past life, and that to place hopes on the accumulated habit energy of volition bearing favourable fruit would be naive. At least this is what I have heard some people say...

Does the way I have described Bhikkhu Bodhi's comments sound technically incorrect at all, or, on the other hand, would it be technically incorrect to suggest that the general accumulated habit energy is *not* likely to have an impact at rebirth? It sounds to me that Bhikkhu Bodhi's comments are (naturally enough!) consistent with the sutta.

Metta,

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Re: MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:58 am


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Re: MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:26 am

ajahn brahm tells a story of a shop owner who learns somewhere that if only he can control his thoughts at the time of death he can guarantee himself a better rebirth

he does this by naming his kids buddha dhamma and sangha so at the time of his death he can be surounded by them and think only of buddha dhamma and sangha thus a good rebirth.

but on his death bed surounded by buddha dhamma and sangha it dawns on him that if his 3 children are there with him, just who is running his shop.. and he dies in a worried state of mind....

:jawdrop:

the moral is it's better to just lead the moral life than to hope you can wrap it all up in the end... dont know if that helps, but i like the story
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Postby phil » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:36 am

Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

phil
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Re: MN Session 6 - MN 57. Kukkuravatika Sutta

Postby phil » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:47 am

Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)


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