MN 52. Aṭṭhakanāgara Sutta

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MN 52. Aṭṭhakanāgara Sutta

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:15 pm

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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retrofuturist
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Re: MN 52. Aṭṭhakanāgara Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:58 pm

Greetings JC, all,

One thing that came to mind reading this sutta, was that jhana, and seeing the conditioned (and thus, subject to disturbance) nature of even the most blissful conditioned mindstates, is an important factor in the renunciation of sense-desires.

Insight meditation is great for experientially realising the realities of anicca and anatta, but to what extent is dukkha directly realised by such methods? Is it just inferred (i.e. it is anicca, therefore it is dukkha... it is anatta, therefore it is dukkha) or is it direct... and if direct, how comprehensive is it and how representative of the full gamut of potential objects of sense desire?

To realise experientially why dukkha is inherent in all conditioned existence, I suspect one may need to experientially see the dukkha inherent in even the most blissful conditioned mindstates for themselves. Otherwise, bliss (be it sensory or jhanic) will always be a temptation, and true renunciation of the senses will be more difficult. I think this is why we see this 'boilerplate' jhana talk repeated so often throughout the Sutta Pitaka.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: MN 52. Aṭṭhakanāgara Sutta

Postby vinasp » Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:21 am

Greetings JC, retrofuturist,all,

What a wonderful discourse ! All attempts at meditation are just adding more conditioned states, to those we already have !
How can you reach nibbana the unconditioned by creating more conditioned states ? You are going the wrong way. Turn around, you must go against the flow, back to the original mind. When you see this what can you do ? Nothing ! Go further, stop doing that which sustains what has already been constructed. Note the two outcomes, full enlightenment, or the state of a non-returner.

Just my heretical opinion. Feel free to disagree. Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: MN 52. Aṭṭhakanāgara Sutta

Postby Jechbi » Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:53 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: MN 52. Aṭṭhakanāgara Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:29 am

Greetings Jechbi,

Quite possibly.

The impermanence of pleasant, unpleasant and neutral sensations are well known by the hedonist, yet it doesn't deter them from pursuing the pleasant.

Likewise, these pleasant sensations are attractive to the hedonist, regardless of whether or not they are perceived as "self".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: MN 52. Aṭṭhakanāgara Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:33 pm

the jhanas are right concentration- add vipassana on to that and you have the recipie for success. In jhana states the mind is very maleable- hence any insight is likely to penetrate quite deeply. Trying to free the mind from attachment without these deep states are like trying to kill the medusa- the mind will find another way to get attached, or is simply too weak to let go with any lasting result-hence not very practical.

but i agree with retro that a broader application of vipassana insight is more useful in completely letting go. It is only when there is complete letting go of samsara that nibbana can manifest, not partial.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: MN 52. Aṭṭhakanāgara Sutta

Postby Jechbi » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:41 pm


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Re: MN 52. Aṭṭhakanāgara Sutta

Postby Raga Mala » Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:40 am

I am always pleased to be reminded in the suttas of the preconditions for success through samadhi, note the Buddha's words:

"...living withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities..."

The formula occurs often in Sutta passages such as this one. Many of us overlook such statements and I know that I, as a reader, have come to be adept at navigating such formulas and merely searching out the "meat and potatoes" of a given Sutta...that is, skimming all the repetitions and sutta-formulas and finding what is new/different in a given paragraph of a Sutta. Nevertheless, the reason this phrase is the doorman of many passages on mental development seems important.

The reduction of sensuality and unskillful thoughts is always a worthwhile pursuit.
"It is easier to shout 'STOP!' than to do it." -Treebeard


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