AN 10.30 Kosala 2

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AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:50 am

AN 10.30 Kosala 2 AN v 65
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi


http://suttacentral.net/an10.30/en

On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s Park. Now on that occasion King Pasenadi of Kosala had returned from the war front, victorious in battle, his purpose having been achieved [2027]. Then King Pasenadi of Kosala set out for the park. He went by carriage as far as the ground was suitable for a carriage, and then he dismounted from his carriage and entered the park on foot. Now on that occasion a number of bhikkhus were walking back and forth in the open air. Then King Pasenadi of Kosala approached those bhikkhus and asked them:

“Bhante, where is the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One now dwelling? For I wish to see the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One.”

“Great king, that is his dwelling with the closed door. Approach it quietly. Without hurrying, enter the porch, clear your throat, and tap on the bolt. The Blessed One will open the door for you.”

Then, King Pasenadi of Kosala went quietly up to the dwelling with the closed door. Without hurrying, he entered the porch, cleared his throat, and tapped on the bolt. The Blessed One opened the door.

Then King Pasenadi of Kosala entered the dwelling, prostrated himself with his head at the Blessed One’s feet, and covered the Blessed One’s feet with kisses and caressed them with his hands, pronouncing his name: “Bhante, I am King Pasenadi of Kosala! Bhante, I am King Pasenadi of Kosala!” [2028]

“But, great king, what reasons do you have for showing such supreme honor to this body and displaying such an offering of loving-kindness?”

“Bhante, it is out of my gratitude and thankfulness that I show such supreme honor toward the Blessed One and display such an offering of loving-kindness to him.

(1) “For, Bhante, the Blessed One is practicing for the welfare of many people, for the happiness of many people; he has established many people in the noble method, that is, in the way of the good Dhamma, in the way of the wholesome Dhamma. [2029] This is one reason I show such supreme honor toward the Blessed One and display such an offering of loving-kindness to him.

(2) “Again, Bhante, the Blessed One is virtuous, of mature behavior, of noble behavior, of wholesome behavior, possessing wholesome behavior. This is another reason I show such supreme honor toward the Blessed One….

(3) “Again, Bhante, for a long time the Blessed One has been a forest-dweller who resorts to remote lodgings in forests and jungle groves. Since that is so, this is another reason I show such supreme honor toward the Blessed One….

(4) “Again, Bhante, the Blessed One is content with any kind of robe, almsfood, lodging, and medicines and provisions for the sick. This is another reason I show such supreme honor toward the Blessed One….

(5) “Again, Bhante, the Blessed One is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, an unsurpassed field of merit for the world. This is another reason I show such supreme honor toward the Blessed One….

(6) “Again, Bhante, the Blessed One gets to hear at will, without trouble or difficulty, talk concerned with the austere life that leads to the elimination of defilements, that is conducive to opening up the heart, that is, talk on fewness of desires, on contentment, on solitude, on not getting bound up with others, on arousing energy, on virtuous behavior, on concentration, on wisdom, on liberation, on the knowledge and vision of liberation. This is another reason I show such supreme honor toward the Blessed One….

(7) “Again, Bhante, the Blessed One gains at will, without trouble or difficulty, the four jhānas that constitute the higher mind and are pleasant dwellings in this very life. This is another reason I show such supreme honor toward the Blessed One….

(8) “Again, Bhante, the Blessed One recollects his manifold past abodes, that is, one birth, two births, three births, four births, five births, ten births, twenty births, thirty births, forty births, fifty births, a hundred births, a thousand births, a hundred thousand births, many eons of world-dissolution, many eons of world-evolution, many eons of world-dissolution and world-evolution thus: ‘There I was so named, of such a clan, with such an appearance, such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my life span; passing away from there, I was reborn elsewhere, and there too I was so named, of such a clan, with such an appearance, such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my life span; passing away from there, I was reborn here.’ Thus he recollects his manifold past abodes with their aspects and details. Since that is so, this is another reason I show such supreme honor toward the Blessed One….

(9) “Again, Bhante, with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, the Blessed One sees beings passing away and being reborn, inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and he understands how beings fare in accordance with their kamma thus: ‘These beings who engaged in misconduct by body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong view, and undertook kamma based on wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, have been reborn in the plane of misery, in a bad destination, in the lower world, in hell; but these beings who engaged in good conduct by body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right view, and undertook kamma based on right view, with the breakup of the body, after death, have been reborn in a good destination, in the heavenly world.’ Thus with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, he sees beings passing away and being reborn, inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and he understands how beings fare in accordance with their kamma. Since that is so, this is another reason I show such supreme honor toward the Blessed One….

(10) “Again, Bhante, with the destruction of the taints, the Blessed One has realized for himself with direct knowledge, in this very life, the taintless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, and having entered upon it, he dwells in it. Since that is so, this is another reason I show such supreme honor toward the Blessed One and display such an offering of loving-kindness to him.

“And now, Bhante, we must be going. We are busy and have much to do.”

“You may go, great king, at your own convenience.”

Then King Pasenadi of Kosala rose from his seat, paid homage to the Blessed One, circumambulated him keeping the right side toward him, and departed.

Notes

[2027] Mp explains the historical background: When King Kosala the Great (Pasenadi’s father) presented his daughter in marriage to Bimbisāra (the king of Magadha), he gave her the village of Kāsi (between the two kingdoms) as a wedding gift. Years later, after Ajātasattu killed his father Bimbisāra, his mother died of grief. Pasenadi decided: “Since Ajātasattu killed his parents, the village belongs to my father.” Ajātasattu, too, thought: “It belongs to my mother.” The two, uncle and nephew, fought a war over Kāsi. Pasenadi was twice defeated by Ajātasattu and had to flee the battle, but on the third occasion he captured Ajātasattu. This was the purpose of which it is said “his purpose having been achieved” (laddhādhippāyo).

[2028] At MN II 120, 1-4 (MN 89), King Pasenadi makes a similar demonstration of reverence for the Buddha and gives ten reasons for showing the Buddha such supreme honor and love. However, the individual items there differ from these.

[2029] Bahuno janassa ariye ñāye patiṭṭhāpitā yadidaṃ kalyāṇadhammatāya kusaladhammatāya. Mp glosses “in the noble method” as “in the path along with insight” (sahavipassanake magge). I follow PED in taking patiṭṭhāpitā to be an agent noun in the nominative singular.
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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby Virgo » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:01 am

This is very inspiring. The Blessed One is Perfect and Awakened.

:anjali: Thank you, Mike.

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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:10 am

Whatever the intentions of whoever put this sutta together, it reads like a marvellous joke. More precisely, a shaggy dog story.
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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:42 pm

Hi Sam,

It's certainly an odd kind of story. The connection between the king's praise and his current activities is not entirely clear.

However, many of the dialogues with King Pasenadi are a little puzzling, at least on the surface:
http://www.aimwell.org/DPPN/pasenadi.htm
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-names.html#pq

He seems to have developed some insight, but still been conscious of being embroiled in worldly activities:
... the Blessed One said to him: "Well now, great king, where are you coming from in the middle of the day?"

"Just now, lord, I was engaged in the sort of royal affairs typical of head-anointed noble-warrior kings intoxicated with the intoxication of sovereignty, obsessed by greed for sensual pleasures, who have attained stable control in their country, and who rule having conquered a great sphere of territory on earth."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... l#pasenadi

:anjali:
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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby gavesako » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:58 pm

This might be why Ven. Thanissaro notes that the Buddha's attitude to kings as reported in the Suttas is rather ambiguous: he receives them and discusses Dhamma with them, but never heaps the kind of over-the-top praise on them as the later Buddhist kings (often regarded as semi-divine) have been getting. He actually describes Pasenadi as "a bit dumb".
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby boris » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:39 am

gavesako wrote:... He actually describes Pasenadi as "a bit dumb".


Dear Bhante, can you be more precise and tell us who describes Pasenadi as "a bit dumb"?

"Monks, King Ajatasattu has evil friends, evil comrades, evil companions, whereas King Pasenadi has fine friends, fine comrades, fine companions.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Bhikkhus, before rising from his seat and departing, this king Pasanadi utter monuments to the Dhamma. Learn the monuments to the Dhamma, bhikkhus; master the monuments to the Dhamma; remember the monuments to the Dhamma. The monuments to the Dhamma are benefitial, bhikkhus, and they belong to the fundamentals of the holy life.
M 89

1) Ability to choose good friends is on the side of wisdom.
2) One who uttered so beneficial monuments to the Dhamma, cannot be "a bit dumb".
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby pulga » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:10 am

"Monks, King Ajatasattu has evil friends, evil comrades, evil companions, whereas King Pasenadi has fine friends, fine comrades, fine companions.


Despite his evil friends, King Ajatasattu might very well have been more clever than many of us. If only he hadn't of killed his father.

Having heard the Sāmaññaphalasutta from the Buddha, the king confessed his transgression, then departed.

Atha kho bhagavā acirapakkantassa rañño māgadhassa ajātasattussa vedehiputtassa bhikkhū āmantesi: “khatāyaṃ, bhikkhave, rājā. Upahatāyaṃ, bhikkhave, rājā. Sacāyaṃ, bhikkhave, rājā pitaraṃ dhammikaṃ dhammarājānaṃ jīvitā na voropessatha, imasmiññeva āsane virajaṃ vītamalaṃ dhammacakkhuṃ uppajjissathā”ti.

Soon after King Ajātasattu had left, the Exalted One addressed the bhikkhus: “This king, bhikkhus, has ruined himself; he has injured himself. Bhikkhus, if this king had not taken the life of his father, a righteous man and a righteous king, then in this very seat there would have arisen in him the dust-free, stainless eye of Dhamma.”



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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby boris » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:04 am

For wisdom is purified by morality, and morality is purified by wisdom: where one is, the other is, the moral man has wisdom and the wise man has morality ...
D4

I call patricide not only very immoral but also very unwise action. Dear Pulga, you seem to classify it to some other category ...
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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby gavesako » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:18 am

It was Ven. Thanissaro's comment that Pasenadi seemed "a bit dumb".
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby pulga » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:06 pm

For wisdom is purified by morality, and morality is purified by wisdom: where one is, the other is, the moral man has wisdom and the wise man has morality ...


I don't regard "wisdom" as an adequate rendering for the word paññā: it is after all just the substantive of the verb pajānāti, i.e. "to understand". It may take up to seven lives for a sotāpanna to acquire the wisdom to attain nibbana.

boris wrote:I call patricide not only very immoral but also very unwise action. Dear Pulga, you seem to classify it to some other category ...


Ajatasattu acted very immorally and unwisely which resulted in a mental perturbation that prevented the dhammacakkhu from arising. Upekkhā -- Ñanavira's "indifference" -- is a virtue that lends clarity to the nature of one's experience, but there are some deeds and situations that we just can't seem to let go of because of their significance. It's a delicate matter, like the handling of a snake, cf. Alagaddūpamasutta (MN22).

But this thread concerns King Pasenadi, so I'll leave it at that.
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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby boris » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:20 pm

pulga wrote:Ajatasattu acted very immorally and unwisely ...
And what is important he was influenced by bad friend Davadatta. And this only confirms my statement that ability to choose good friends is on the side of wisdom. Elements tend to unification and to have good and wise friends usually isn't an accidental matter.

Surely King from Kosala was not some kind of great thinker, but nothing in Suttas justifies to describe Pasenadi as "a bit dumb".
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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby pulga » Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:10 pm

boris wrote:Surely King from Kosala was not some kind of great thinker, but nothing in Suttas justifies to describe Pasenadi as "a bit dumb".


I agree, but perhaps Ven. Thanissaro knows something that we don't.
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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby boris » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:40 pm

Perhaps. Deep and profound are minds of theravada monks inclined to seclusion, detachment and estrangement (nibida).
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby gavesako » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:22 am

Well, consider a passage from the Suttas such as this one describing Pasenadi:

King Pasenadi: Moderation in Consuming Food
Samyutta Nikaya III.13: A Bucket Measure of Food

At Savatthi. Now on that occasion King Pasenadi of Kosala had eaten a bucket measure of rice and curries. Then, while still full, huffing and puffing, the king approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, and sat down to one side. Then the Blessed One, having understood that King Pasenadi was full and huffing and puffing, on that occasion recited this verse:

"When a man is always mindful,
Knowing moderation in the food he eats,
His ailments then diminish:
He ages slowly, guarding his life."

Now on that occasion the brahmin youth Sudassana was standing behind King Pasenadi of Kosala. The king then addressed him thus: "Come now, dear Sudassana, learn this verse from the Blessed One and recite it to me whenever I am nearing the end of my meal. I will then present you daily with a hundred kahapanas as a perpetual grant." --"Yes, sire," the brahmin youth Sudassana replied. Then King Pasenadi of Kosala gradually reduced his intake of food to at most a pint-pot measure of boiled rice. At a later time, when his body had become quite slim, King Pasenadi of Kosala stroked his limbs with his hand and on that occasion uttered this inspired utterance: "The Blessed One showed compassion towards me in regard to both kinds of good -- the good pertaining to the present life and that pertaining to the future life."


:popcorn:
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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby yikeren » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:24 am

(6) “Again, Bhante, the Blessed One gets to hear at will, without trouble or difficulty, talk concerned with the austere life ...

Can someone explain the 6th declaration?
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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby pulga » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:05 pm

gavesako wrote:Well, consider a passage from the Suttas such as this one describing Pasenadi:...


It may be my own personal temperament but I don't regard people who have trouble with overeating as "a bit dumb". That King Pasenadi could end his addiction to food through being mindful and following the Buddha's advice showed a great deal of understanding and wisdom.

I prefer Geiger's "große Schüssel", i.e. " big bowl" to Ven. Thanissaro's "bucket" (doṇa is a measurement of capacity: it needn't be taken literally), and would translate mahassāsī as "breathing heavily" rather than "huffing and puffing". But as I said, it's a matter of temperament -- how one views other people -- that inevitably influences the way the sutta is translated .
Last edited by pulga on Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby santa100 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:17 pm

yikeren wrote:
(6) “Again, Bhante, the Blessed One gets to hear at will, without trouble or difficulty, talk concerned with the austere life ...

Can someone explain the 6th declaration?

It means the Buddha possesses the prerequisite for the development of the wings to self-awakening as described in AN 9.1:
"'Furthermore, he gets to hear at will, easily & without difficulty, talk that is truly sobering & conducive to the opening of awareness, i.e., talk on modesty, on contentment, on seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge & vision of release. This is the third prerequisite for the development of the wings to self-awakening.
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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby yikeren » Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:51 am

Thank you Santa100

When we hear (or read)
What and only what we want to hear (or read)
Ditthi cannot be but personal (not Samma)
Possessed of the 3 characteristics

The Blessed One has shown
The way to avoid entanglement
To arouse virtue and discernment
Is to be truly open to awareness
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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby culaavuso » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:41 pm

pulga wrote:It may be my own personal temperament but I don't regard people who have trouble with overeating as "a bit dumb". That King Pasenadi could end his addiction to food through being mindful and following the Buddha's advice showed a great deal of understanding and wisdom.


Overeating does not seem to be the sole reason for this claim.

Getting the Message by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:Even King Pasenadi of Kosala, the king most closely associated with the Buddha, comes across as well-meaning but somewhat dense. An entire discourse, MN 90, is a satire of how his royal position has thwarted his ability to learn the Dhamma. He can't phrase his questions properly, has trouble following a discussion for more than a few sentences, and is unable to come to any certain conclusions about the truth. Still, in other discourses he has his occasional moments of spiritual clarity, and the Buddha uses those moments as opportunities to teach the Dhamma.
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Re: AN 10.30 Kosala 2

Postby binocular » Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:15 pm

gavesako wrote:It was Ven. Thanissaro's comment that Pasenadi seemed "a bit dumb".


/.../
If the pride of soldiers and actors required special handling, even more care was required in the handling of kings, for their pride was often coupled with an unrestrained sense of power. A remarkable feature of the Pali Canon is that even though the Buddha was a member of the noble warrior caste, the discourses generally show a low regard for the spiritual standing of kings. In many passages, kings are mentioned in the same breath with thieves: They confiscate property and show little regard for the rule of law. The Canon does recognize exceptions — King Bimbisara of Magadha achieves stream-entry the first time he hears the Dhamma, and he never engages in war — but for the most part, kings are depicted as spiritually stunted. King Ajatasattu, on first seeing the Buddha sitting surrounded by monks, can't tell which person in the assembly is the Buddha, a sign of his spiritual blindness; this blindness is later proven by his asking the Buddha's advice on how to defeat his innocent neighbors in war. As one of the discourses suggests, this sort of blindness is an occupational hazard for rulers, in that the unfair exercise of power can make a person unfit for learning the truth.

"Because of having wrongly inflicted suffering on another person through beating or imprisonment or confiscation or placing blame or banishment, [with the thought,] 'I have power. I want power,' when told what is factual, he denies it and doesn't acknowledge it. When told what is unfactual, he doesn't make an ardent effort to untangle it [to see], 'This is unfactual. This is baseless.'"


— AN 3.69

Even King Pasenadi of Kosala, the king most closely associated with the Buddha, comes across as well-meaning but somewhat dense. An entire discourse, MN 90, is a satire of how his royal position has thwarted his ability to learn the Dhamma. He can't phrase his questions properly, has trouble following a discussion for more than a few sentences, and is unable to come to any certain conclusions about the truth. Still, in other discourses he has his occasional moments of spiritual clarity, and the Buddha uses those moments as opportunities to teach the Dhamma. The Buddha's approach here is twofold: to try to expand the king's perspective on life at times when the king is willing to be frank; and to encourage the king when the latter gains insights on his own.

/.../


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ssage.html


(emphases mine)
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