SN 1.63 Taṇhā: Craving

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SN 1.63 Taṇhā: Craving

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:08 am

SN 1.63 Taṇhā: Craving
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi


http://suttacentral.net/search?query=sn+1.63
http://suttacentral.net/sn1.63/en

“By what is the world led around?
By what is it dragged here and there?
What is the one thing that has
All under its control?”

“The world is led around by craving;
By craving it‘s dragged here and there.
Craving is the one thing that has
All under its control.”
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Re: SN 1.63 Taṇhā: Craving

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:10 am

SN 1.63 Taṇhā: Craving
Translate by John Ireland


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... #passage-5

[Devataa:]
By what is the world led?
By what is it defiled?
And what is that one thing?
Controlled by which all follow?

[The Lord:]
The world is led by craving,
By craving it is defiled,
And craving is that one thing
Controlled by which all follow."[6]

Note

[6] In the discourse preceding this text in the Paali original (not included here), the word "mind" (citta) is substituted for "craving."
[“The world is led around by mind; ... http://suttacentral.net/sn1.62/en]
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Re: SN 1.63 Taṇhā: Craving

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:12 am

SN 1.63. Taṇhāsutta

http://suttacentral.net/sn1.63/pi

“Kenassu nīyati loko,
kenassu parikassati;
Kissassu ekadhammassa,
sabbeva vasamanvagū”ti.

“Taṇhāya nīyati loko,
taṇhāya parikassati;
Taṇhāya ekadhammassa,
sabbeva vasamanvagū”ti.
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Re: SN 1.63 Taṇhā: Craving

Postby lyndon taylor » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:32 am

To be perfectly honest I think the pali word translated as craving has a more complicated and subtly different definition and usage than the English word. For me to say "craving is a major source of suffering but not the whole cause of every suffering" rather than that "all suffering in this life is caused by craving", makes a lot more sense when using the English definition of the word craving.

It seems to me all suffering has causes, if we eliminate the causes of suffering the suffering ceases. If we eliminated all "craving"(english defintion) would that eliminate all suffering or is it more complicated than that. For instance physical pain, we can lessen it with our mind, but it is hard to 100% ignore it, how does craving alone explain all forms of physical suffering? to me it doesn't. Not focusing on the pain, not dwelling on the pain, that helps, but is that a form of reducing craving or something else??
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: SN 1.63 Taṇhā: Craving

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:49 am

lyndon taylor wrote:To be perfectly honest I think the pali word translated as craving has a more complicated and subtly different definition and usage than the English word. For me to say "craving is a major source of suffering but not the whole cause of every suffering" rather than that "all suffering in this life is caused by craving", makes a lot more sense when using the English definition of the word craving.

It seems to me all suffering has causes, if we eliminate the causes of suffering the suffering ceases. If we eliminated all "craving"(english defintion) would that eliminate all suffering or is it more complicated than that. For instance physical pain, we can lessen it with our mind, but it is hard to 100% ignore it, how does craving alone explain all forms of physical suffering? to me it doesn't. Not focusing on the pain, not dwelling on the pain, that helps, but is that a form of reducing craving or something else??


You make some interesting points, lyndon. I think it depends on whether one thinks that consciousness is inescapably conditioned by some other fabricating process which is more subtle than what we would normally mean by "craving" in English. If one does, then we suffer simply because we are conscious, and that consciousness is inherently prone to suffering; not necessarily because we have desires or wants which are present to that consciousness.
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Re: SN 1.63 Taṇhā: Craving

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:20 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:To be perfectly honest I think the pali word translated as craving has a more complicated and subtly different definition and usage than the English word.


Yes, it's difficult to find a single English word which really captures "tanha". Literally it means "thirst", which perhaps gives a better feel for the meaning than "craving"? Another phrase I've come across is "attachment to desire" ( Ajahn Sumedho I think ).
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Re: SN 1.63 Taṇhā: Craving

Postby culaavuso » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:52 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:To be perfectly honest I think the pali word translated as craving has a more complicated and subtly different definition and usage than the English word. For me to say "craving is a major source of suffering but not the whole cause of every suffering" rather than that "all suffering in this life is caused by craving", makes a lot more sense when using the English definition of the word craving.


Many of the key doctrinal words from pāli don't have good english words to use for translation. However, there seems to be a benefit from translators sticking to a consistent translation even if it isn't a perfect one. Usually when reading an english translation, it's easy enough to know that "craving" means "taṇhā" which helps make the translations mutually intelligible. If every translator tried a new way to make a more accurate translation, it would be very difficult to use a sutta from one translator to build on the understanding from another sutta from a different translator.

The links in DO provide a good idea of how to understand taṇhā : it's that which is conditioned by feeling and leads to attachment. The word "craving" in english seems to emphasize this second link but not necessarily the first. Regarding the link from feeling, One way to think of the craving arising as a sort of negative after image of the feeling. If the feeling was pleasant, then when that stimulus is not present there is an awareness of the possibility of that pleasant feeling which we call craving. If the feeling was unpleasant, then when that stimulus is not present there is an awareness of the possibility of that unpleasant feeling which also leads to a sort of craving of the negation of that previous situation.

lyndon taylor wrote:It seems to me all suffering has causes, if we eliminate the causes of suffering the suffering ceases. If we eliminated all "craving"(english defintion) would that eliminate all suffering or is it more complicated than that. For instance physical pain, we can lessen it with our mind, but it is hard to 100% ignore it, how does craving alone explain all forms of physical suffering? to me it doesn't. Not focusing on the pain, not dwelling on the pain, that helps, but is that a form of reducing craving or something else??


Pain and suffering are two different things. When there is suffering from pain, it is through resisting the reality of that pain. The resistance arises from a craving for non-painful feeling. See, for example, SN 36.6 and AN 8.6. Pain is a failing of the world, but suffering can be avoided. This form of craving seems to be related to a "healthy person's intoxication with health" touched on in AN 5.57.

SN 36.6: Sallatha Sutta wrote:Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental.


AN 8.6: Lokavipatti Sutta wrote:Now, gain arises for a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones. He reflects, 'Gain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He discerns it as it actually is.

"Loss arises... Status arises... Disgrace arises... Censure arises... Praise arises... Pleasure arises...

"Pain arises. He reflects, 'Pain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He discerns it as it actually is.


AN 5.57: Upajjhatthana Sutta wrote:Now, based on what line of reasoning should one often reflect... that 'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness'? There are beings who are intoxicated with a [typical] healthy person's intoxication with health. Because of that intoxication with health, they conduct themselves in a bad way in body... in speech... and in mind. But when they often reflect on that fact, that healthy person's intoxication with health will either be entirely abandoned or grow weaker...
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Re: SN 1.63 Taṇhā: Craving

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:26 am

culaavuso wrote: If the feeling was unpleasant, then when that stimulus is not present there is an awareness of the possibility of that unpleasant feeling which also leads to a sort of craving of the negation of that previous situation.


I think of craving and aversion like magnetism, forces of attraction and repulsion. Grasping or pushing away.
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Re: SN 1.63 Taṇhā: Craving

Postby pulga » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:03 pm

The verse appears to be the second half of a couplet:

“By what is the world led around?
By what is it dragged here and there?
What is the one thing that has
All under its control?”

“The world is led around by mind;
By mind it’s dragged here and there.
Mind is the one thing that has
All under its control.”

http://suttacentral.net/sn1.62/en

“By what is the world led around?
By what is it dragged here and there?
What is the one thing that has
All under its control?”

“The world is led around by craving;
By craving it‘s dragged here and there.
Craving is the one thing that has
All under its control.”

http://suttacentral.net/sn1.63/en

Ven. Bodhi has translated citta as mind.
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Re: SN 1.63 Taṇhā: Craving

Postby culaavuso » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:47 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
culaavuso wrote: If the feeling was unpleasant, then when that stimulus is not present there is an awareness of the possibility of that unpleasant feeling which also leads to a sort of craving of the negation of that previous situation.


I think of craving and aversion like magnetism, forces of attraction and repulsion. Grasping or pushing away.


The magnetism forces interpretation of craving is a useful one to consider. It seems to focus on the way craving conditions attachment more than the way that feeling conditions craving. It also seems that the magnetism analogy can be extended to cover the way that feelings condition craving by considering ferromagnetism. When a piece of iron is left in a magnetic field for an extended period of time for example, then if the magnetic field is removed the ferromagnetic material continues to attract and repel things based on the alignment of the previously present magnetic field.
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Re: SN 1.63 Taṇhā: Craving

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:05 am

The rest of the vagga is discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=20114&p=281831#p281827

:anjali:
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