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MN 7. Vatthūpama Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

MN 7. Vatthūpama Sutta

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MN 7. Vatthūpama Sutta

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:47 am

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: MN 7. Vatthūpama Sutta

Postby Sher » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:52 am


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Re: MN 7. Vatthūpama Sutta

Postby Sher » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:06 am


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Re: MN 7. Vatthūpama Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:09 pm

If a teacher claims enlightenment how can she/he prove it? She cant and for most of the time those listening will think she is a fraud. This will turn them away from listening to her any longer. Alternatively a small number of the congregation might believe her, if only after some explanation- they might become more eager to practice in the way taught, having gained more faith in the teacher. This is a balance every teacher must decide how to strike for the sake of her students.

At the same time true attainments are intensely personal phenomena- often unable to describe using words. I am reminded of a 7 yr old arahanth who according to the buddha apparently though 'may no one know I have attained enlightenment'. So it is not with any ease that these things will be revealed.

Another element of this is that often people are fooled into believing they have attained - and often this happens more than a few time for good meditators in their path upwards. So no one can be 100% certain about any attainments. So not making any prnouncements is often a wise choice. The best way to know about an attainments (I'm talking of magga-phala here) is to complete the next higher one- then one can be certain that the lower one has been reached atleast.

I think another factor is that some teachers have no attainments that they can speak of -so they dont.

Having said all this there are teacher like Ajhan Mun who have spoken openly about the path that they took to instruct their students.

:anjali:
With Metta

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Re: MN 7. Vatthūpama Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:04 pm

incdentally a lot of the defilements fall away at the non returner stage- often helped by the four divine abiding meditations- as mentioned in this sutta. the flip side of defilements falling away is that samadhi/one pointedness of mind becomes extremely purified. it is said that the work of developing one pointedness reaches it's completion at the non returner stage. Samma vayama- right effort (6th step of the noble eightfold path) which is defined simply as getting rid of defilements and cultivating wholesome mind states fall under the Samadhi aggregate because of this.
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Re: MN 7. Vatthūpama Sutta

Postby Sher » Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:42 pm


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Re: MN 7. Vatthūpama Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:07 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: MN 7. Vatthūpama Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:44 am


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Re: MN 7. Vatthūpama Sutta

Postby Sher » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:41 am


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Re: MN 7. Vatthūpama Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:10 am

Bhikkhu Bodhi:

Later forms of Buddhism draw extreme distinctions between the Buddhas and the arahants, but in the Nikayas this distinction is not as sharp as one might expect if one takes the later texts as the benchmark of interpretation. On the one hand, the Buddha is an arahant, as is evident from the standard verse of homage to the Blessed One; on the other, arahants are buddhas, in the sense that they have attained full enlightenment, sambodhi, by awakening to the same truths that the Buddha himself realized.A Buddha has the function of discovering and expounding the path, and he also possesses a unique familiarity with the intricacies of the path not shared by his disciples. His disciples follow the path he reveals and attain enlightenment afterward, under his guidance. IN THE BUDDHA’S WORDS, by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Page 382.

Jake Davis:

Maintaining a definition of arahat as one completely pure of unskillful intentions, the Pali texts depict the Buddha’s own awakening [bodhi] to be the same in nature as that of any arahat, though distinguished, of course, by being the first. STRONG ROOTS by Jake Davis page 45 http://www.dharma.org/bcbs/Pages/publications.html

The following discourse is one of many that make the above points:

Sammasambuddha Sutta:

At Saavatthi. "Bhikkhus, the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form (feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness), through its fading away and cessation is called a perfectly Enlightened One. A bhikkhu liberated by wisdom, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form (feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness), through its fading away and cessation is called one liberated by wisdom.

[Here we have an equivalency between the Buddha and the arahants in terms of attainment, and acknowledging this equivalency, the Buddha then asks:]

Therein, bhikkhus, what is the distinction, what is the disparity, what is the difference between the Tathaagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One and a bhikkhu liberated by wisdom? ...

The Tathagata, monks, who, being Arahant, is fully awakened, it is he who causes a way to arise which has not arisen before; who proclaims a way not proclaimed before; who is a knower of a way, who understands a way, who is skilled in a way. And now, monks, his disciples are wayfarers who follow after him. That, monks, is the distinction, the specific feature which distinguished the Tathagata who, being arahant, is fully awakened, from the monk who is freed by insight.
SN III 66.

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Re: MN 7. Vatthūpama Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:24 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: MN 7. Vatthūpama Sutta

Postby Sher » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:55 pm



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