SN 47.37: Chanda Sutta — Desire

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SN 47.37: Chanda Sutta — Desire

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:09 pm

SN 47.37 PTS: S v 181 CDB ii 1658
Chanda Sutta: Desire
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu


How mindfulness leads to freedom from desire — and beyond.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

At Savatthi. "Monks, there are these four establishings of mindfulness. Which four?

"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. For him, remaining focused on the body in and of itself, any desire for the body is abandoned. From the abandoning of desire, the deathless is realized.

"He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. For him, remaining focused on feelings in & of themselves, any desire for feelings is abandoned. From the abandoning of desire, the deathless is realized.

"He remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. For him, remaining focused on the mind in and of itself, any desire for the mind is abandoned. From the abandoning of desire, the deathless is realized.

"He remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. For him, remaining focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, any desire for mental qualities is abandoned. From the abandoning of desire, the deathless is realized."
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Re: SN 47.37: Chanda Sutta — Desire

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:11 pm

SN 47.37: Chanda Sutta
Translated by John Ireland


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... passage-70

"These, bhikkhus, are the four foundations of mindfulness...

"While he is living practicing body-contemplation on the body, whatever desire there is with regard to the body is abandoned. By abandoning desire the deathless is realized.

"While he is living practicing feeling-contemplation on feelings... mind-contemplation on mind... mind-object contemplation on the objects of mind, whatever desire there is with regard to mind-objects is abandoned. By abandoning desire the deathless is realized."
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Re: SN 47.37: Chanda Sutta — Desire

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:14 pm

Bhikkhu Bodhi translates it as:

    “Bhikkhus, there are these four establishments of mindfulness. What four? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. As he dwells thus contemplating the body in the body, whatever desire he has for the body is abandoned. With the abandoning of desire, the Deathless is realized.
    ... feelings in feelings … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena ...
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Re: SN 47.37: Chanda Sutta — Desire

Postby polarbuddha101 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:33 pm

I would imagine the reason for this is because satipatthana results in one seeing the basic pattern of anicca, dukkha, anatta of the body, feelings, mind, phenomena and thus dispassion and release from attachment to them. As a result, there is no you in connection with the body, feelings, mind, phenomena; when there is no you in connection with that there is no you to die when those things cease. This is my current understanding of deathlessness, i.e. the realization of anatta. Meditation such as satipatthana allows one to comprehend the full range of experience and see that it is just phenomena flowing on with no inherent identity in connection to it, i.e. identity is just another idea/mental fabrication and it too is anicca, dukkha, anatta.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: SN 47.37: Chanda Sutta — Desire

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:48 pm

mikenz66 wrote:"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself —


Does "in & of itself" mean focussing on just the body ( in this case ), excluding the other 3 frames of reference?
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: SN 47.37: Chanda Sutta — Desire

Postby daverupa » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:14 pm

porpoise wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself —


Does "in & of itself" mean focussing on just the body ( in this case ), excluding the other 3 frames of reference?


There's a post somewhere discussing this phrase; another way of phrasing it is to say "With respect to the body, one is a body-contemplator" and so forth for the others, which seems much clearer to me, but in this case it also seems to avoid that problematic phrase.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: SN 47.37: Chanda Sutta — Desire

Postby santa100 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:36 pm

porpoise wrote:
Does "in & of itself" mean focussing on just the body ( in this case ), excluding the other 3 frames of reference?

From Bhikkhu Bodhi's "In the Buddha's Words" note:

Ps says the repetition “contemplating the body in the body” (kāye kāyānupassī) has the purpose of precisely determining the object of contemplation and of isolating that object from others with which it might be confused. Thus, in this practice, the body should be contemplated as such, and not one’s feelings, ideas, and emotions concerning it. The phrase also means that the body should be contemplated simply as a body and not as a man, a woman, a self, or a living being. Parallel considerations apply to the repetitions with regard to each of the other three establishments of mindfulness. “Longing and dejection” (abhijjhā-domanassaṃ), according to Ps, imply sensual desire and ill will, the chief among the five mental hindrances
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Re: SN 47.37: Chanda Sutta — Desire

Postby daverupa » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:18 pm

daverupa wrote:There's a post somewhere ...


viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15686&p=225251&hilit=+body+contemplator#p225091

Strictly speaking, kāyānupassī does not actually mean "contemplating the body," but a "body-contemplator." Thus a very literal translation of the phrase would be: "He dwells as a body-contemplator in relation to the body." Since such a rendering would sound awkward in English, I fall back on the familiar "contemplating the body in the body." Similar considerations apply to the other three satipaṭṭhānas.


This is part of a footnote by Bhikkhu Bodhi in his AN translation.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: SN 47.37: Chanda Sutta — Desire

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:40 pm

From the abandoning of desire, the deathless is realized."


Interesting to see that the desire whose abandonment leads to the deathless is chanda. This does of course also have a positive meaning more like "willingness" or "zeal", but it is clear from this that any desire for body, feelings, mind, or phenomena/dhamma is to be abandoned. Presumably a wholesome desire for, say, path factors or liberation itself cannot be abandoned while those factors are still undeveloped.

Because of this, I'm not sure whether the tone of this bit is more prescriptive ("If you want this, abandon desire...") or descriptive ("The deathless arises when this happens...").
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Re: SN 47.37: Chanda Sutta — Desire

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:47 am

Thanks Santa100 and Daverupa. Practically speaking, just focussing on one frame seems quite challenging off the cushion. ;)
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: SN 47.37: Chanda Sutta — Desire

Postby Sam Vara » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:34 pm

any desire for the body is abandoned. From the abandoning of desire, the deathless is realized.


Do you think this means that if all desire for the body is abandoned, then the deathless is realised?

Or does it mean that if all desire for everything is abandoned, only then is the deathless realised; and the abandoning of desire for the body is one instantiation of this that we can see for ourselves?

Can the deathless be realised with regard to the body, the feelings, etc. separately, according to this sutta?
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