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Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:16 am
by mikenz66
“Thus, bhikkhus, the actuality in this, the inerrancy, the nototherwiseness, specific conditionality: this is called dependent origination.

BB: At 56:20, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and
56:27 the Four Noble Truths are said to be tatha, avitatha , anaññatha—the adjectives corresponding to the first three abstract nouns here. Spk gives a very specific interpretation (translated just below), though we might suspect the original sense was simply that the teaching of dependent origination is true, not false, and not other than real.

Spk: Actuality (tathatā) is said to indicate the occurrence of each particular phenomenon when its assemblage of appropriate conditions is present. Inerrancy (avitathatā) means that once its conditions have reached completeness there is no nonoccurrence, even for a moment, of the phenomenon due to be produced from those conditions. Nototherwiseness (anaññathatā) means that there is no production of one phenomenon by another’s conditions. The phrase specific conditionality is used to refer to the (individual) conditions for aging-and-death, etc., or to the conditions taken as a group (paccayasamūhato).

Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:16 am
by Spiny O'Norman
mikenz66 wrote:Sometimes some are left out, and there are suttas such as the Honeyball Sutta, which use a part of the sequence to head off in a slightly different direction (but still ultimately dukkha...):
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye.
:anjali:
Mike
Yes, I appreciate that there are variations in the way DO is presented, but I still don't understand why you're suggesting DO is non-linear - presumably you're not suggesting that the order in which the nidanas appear is arbitrary? Or do you mean that each nidana arises in dependence on the preceding "set" of nidanas?

It may partly depends on whether one views the nidanas as events or processes - from reading the suttas they look to me more like processes.

Spiny

Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:40 am
by Cittasanto
Hi Spiney
Try reading my posts from this one hereit and the link maybe of assistance for your query.

Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:28 am
by mikenz66
“When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple has clearly seen with correct wisdom[55] as it really is this dependent origination and these dependently arisen phenomena, it is impossible that he will run back into the past, thinking: ‘Did I exist in the past? Did I not exist in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past?’ Or that he will run forward into the future, thinking: ‘Will I exist in the future? Will I not exist in the future? What will I be in the future? How will I be in the future? Having been what, what will I become in the future?’ Or that he will now be inwardly confused about the present thus: ‘Do I exist? Do I not exist? What am I? How am I? This being—where has it come from, and where will it go?’[56]

[55] Sammappaññāya. Spk: With path wisdom together with insight (savipassanāya maggapaññāya).

[56] BB: The sixteen cases of doubt are also mentioned at MN I 8,4-15. [MN 2 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html].
  • BB notes there:
    According to MA, this passage is undertaken to show the taint of views (diṭṭhāsava, not expressly mentioned in the discourse) under the heading of doubt. However, it might be more correct to say that the taint of views, disclosed by [the next paragraph], emerges out of unwise attention in the form of doubt. The various types of doubt are already pregnant with the wrong views that will come to explicit expression in the next section.
For a discussion of their abandonment, see Visuddhimagga [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... index.html] 599 (Ppn 19:5-6)
  • 5. After discerning the material body’s conditions in this way, he again discerns
    the mental body in the way beginning: “Due to eye and to visible object eye-
    consciousness arises” (S II 72; M I 111 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html). When he has thus seen that the occurrence of mentality-materiality is due to conditions, then he sees that, as now, so in the
    past too its occurrence was due to conditions, and in the future too its occurrence will be due to conditions.

    6. When he sees it in this way, all his uncertainty is abandoned, that is to say,
    the five kinds of uncertainty about the past stated thus: “Was I in the past? Was
    I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been
    what, what was I in the past?” (M I 8 [MN 2]), and also the five kinds of uncertainty
    about the future stated thus: “Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future?
    What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what,
    what shall I be in the future?” (M I 8); and also the six kinds of uncertainty about
    the present stated thus: “Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Whence will
    this being have come? Whither will it be bound?” (M I 8).
and Visuddhimagga [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... index.html] 603-5 (Ppn 19:21-27).
  • 21. When he has discerned the conditions of mentality-materiality in this way
    by means of the round of kamma and the round of kamma-result, and has
    abandoned uncertainty about the three periods of time, then all past, future and
    present states are understood by him in accordance with death and rebirth-
    linking. This is his full-understanding of the known (see XX.3).

    22. He understands thus: “Aggregates produced in the past with kamma as
    condition ceased there too. But other aggregates are produced in this becoming
    with past kamma as their condition, although there is no single thing that has
    come over from the past becoming to this becoming. And aggregates produced
    in this becoming with kamma as their condition will cease. And in the future
    becoming other aggregates will be produced, although no single thing will go
    over from this becoming to the future becoming.
    “Furthermore, just as, while the recitation from the teacher’s mouth does not
    enter into the pupil’s mouth, yet recitation does not because of that fail to take
    place in the pupil’s mouth—and while the potion drunk by the proxy does not
    enter the sick man’s stomach, yet the sickness does not because of that fail to be
    cured—and while the arrangement of the ornaments on the face does not pass
    over to the reflection of the face in the looking glass, yet the arrangement of the
    ornaments does not because of that fail to appear—and while the flame of a
    lamp does not move over from one wick to another, yet the flame does not because
    of that fail to be produced—so too, while nothing whatever moves over from the
    past becoming to this becoming, or from this to the future becoming, [604] yet
    aggregates, bases, and elements do not fail to be produced here with aggregates,
    §bases, and elements in the past becoming as their condition, or in the future
    becoming with aggregates, bases, and elements here as their condition.”

    23.
    Just as eye-consciousness comes next
    Following on mind element,
    Which, though it does not come from that,
    Yet fails not next to be produced,
    So too, in rebirth-linking, conscious
    Continuity takes place:
    The prior consciousness breaks up,
    The subsequent is born from that.
    They have no interval between,
    Nor gap [that separates the two];
    While naught whatever passes over,
    Still rebirth-linking comes about.

    24. When all states are understood by him thus in accordance with death and
    rebirth-linking, his knowledge of discerning the conditions of mentality-
    materiality is sound in all its aspects and the sixteen kinds of doubt are more
    effectively abandoned. And not only that, but the eight kinds of doubt that occur
    in the way beginning thus, “He is doubtful about the Master”
    (A III 248; Dhs§1004)
    http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
    • 5. Cetokhilasutta: An arrow in the mind
      021.05. Bhikkhus, these five are arrows in the mind. What five?

      Here, bhikkhus, the bhikkhu has doubts about the Teacher, he does not feel inclined towards the Teacher, is not reassured, the mind does not apply to become tranquil, to persevere, to dispel and make endeavour. The mind's lack of assurance, lack of application to become tranquil, to persevere, to dispel and make endeavour is the first arrow in the mind.

      Again, bhikkhus, the bhikkhu has doubts about the Teaching, ... re ... about the Community of bhikkhus, ... re ... about the training, ... re ... and abides with an angry afflicted mind towards the co-associates in the holy life, he does not feel inclined towards them, is not reassured, the mind does not apply to become tranquil, to persevere, to dispel and make endeavour. The mind's lack of assurance, lack of application to become tranquil, to persevere, to dispel and make endeavour is the fifth arrow in the mind.
    are abandoned too, and the sixty-two kinds of views are suppressed (See
    DN 1 [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html] and MN 102 [http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... aya-e.html]).

    25. The knowledge that has been established by the overcoming of doubt about
    the three periods of time by discerning the conditions of mentality-materiality
    according to the various methods should be understood as “purification by
    overcoming doubt.” Other terms for it are “knowledge of the relations of states”
    and “correct knowledge” and “right vision.”

    26. For this is said: “Understanding of discernment of conditions thus,
    ‘Ignorance is a condition, formations are conditionally arisen, and both these
    states are conditionally arisen,’ is knowledge of the causal relationship of states”
    (Paþis I 50). And:
    “When he brings to mind as impermanent, what states does he correctly
    know and see? How is there right seeing? How, by inference from that, are all
    formations clearly seen as impermanent? Wherein is doubt abandoned? When
    he brings to mind as painful ... When he brings to mind as not-self, what states
    does he correctly know and see? ... Wherein is doubt abandoned?
    “When he brings to mind as impermanent, he correctly knows and sees the
    sign. Hence ‘right seeing’ is said. Thus, by inference from that, all formations
    are clearly seen as impermanent. Herein doubt is abandoned. When he brings
    to mind as painful, he correctly knows and sees occurrence. Hence ... When he
    brings to mind as not-self, he correctly knows and sees the sign and occurrence.
    Hence ‘right seeing’ is said. Thus, by inference from that, all states are clearly
    seen as not-self. Herein doubt is abandoned.
    “Correct knowledge and right seeing and overcoming of doubt [605]—are
    these things different in meaning and different in the letter or are they one in
    meaning and only the letter is different? Correct knowledge and right seeing
    and overcoming of doubt—these things are one in meaning and only the letter
    is different” (Paþis II 62f.).

    27. When a man practicing insight has become possessed of this knowledge,
    he has found comfort in the Buddhas’ Dispensation, he has found a foothold, he
    is certain of his destiny, he is called a “lesser stream-enterer.”

    So would a bhikkhu overcome
    His doubts, then ever mindfully
    Let him discern conditions both
    Of mind and matter thoroughly.
BB: Spk explains that the basic division expressed in the doubts—between existing and not existing in the past, etc.—reflects the antinomy of eternalism and annihilationism. The other doubts pertaining to past existence arise within an eternalist framework. Similar distinctions apply among the doubts pertaining to the future and the present.

Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:32 am
by Spiny O'Norman
vinasp wrote: 1. The three lifetimes model - here nama-rupa can be ones actual physical
body and ones actual mind, which have arisen due to ignorance and craving
in ones previous life.

2. The "limited to this life" model - here nothing in the series can be an
actual physical thing because ignorance is mental and only other mental
things can arise from it.
Hi Vincent, I've just re-read SN 12.2 and MN9, and the way the nidanas are described seems completely inconsistent with your model 2, the exclusively mental ( "psychological"? ) interpretation. See particularly how the being, birth, aging and death nidanas are described in these suttas.

Spiny

Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:51 pm
by kirk5a
Spiny O'Norman wrote: Hi Vincent, I've just re-read SN 12.2 and MN9, and the way the nidanas are described seems completely inconsistent with your model 2, the exclusively mental ( "psychological"? ) interpretation. See particularly how the being, birth, aging and death nidanas are described in these suttas.

Spiny
I also would be interested in the explanation of how "greying, wrinkling" is mental.

Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:47 pm
by daverupa
kirk5a wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote: Hi Vincent, I've just re-read SN 12.2 and MN9, and the way the nidanas are described seems completely inconsistent with your model 2, the exclusively mental ( "psychological"? ) interpretation. See particularly how the being, birth, aging and death nidanas are described in these suttas.

Spiny
I also would be interested in the explanation of how "greying, wrinkling" is mental.
Is paticcasamuppada explaining the physical dart, or the mental dart, or both? Because the Buddha's hair & body were seen to grey & wrinkle...

Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:55 pm
by vinasp
Hi everyone,

Several posters are objecting that a "psychological model" of Dependent
Origination does not make sense. They refer to the links "being", "birth"
and "old-age-and-death", as incompatible with any such model.

I cannot give a full explanation on this thread, but I will do so elsewhere.

Briefly, the psychological model interprets these three links as representing
views about self.

Regards, Vincent.

Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:17 am
by mikenz66
“For what reason [is this impossible (running back to the past, etc)]? Because, bhikkhus, the noble disciple has clearly seen with correct wisdom as it really is this dependent origination and these dependently arisen phenomena.”

:anjali:
Mike

Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:15 am
by Spiny O'Norman
daverupa wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote: Hi Vincent, I've just re-read SN 12.2 and MN9, and the way the nidanas are described seems completely inconsistent with your model 2, the exclusively mental ( "psychological"? ) interpretation. See particularly how the being, birth, aging and death nidanas are described in these suttas.

Spiny
I also would be interested in the explanation of how "greying, wrinkling" is mental.
Is paticcasamuppada explaining the physical dart, or the mental dart, or both? Because the Buddha's hair & body were seen to grey & wrinkle...
Good point. Paticcasamuppada describes the dependent origination of dukkha, and as I understand it dukkha represents the mental dart only - because a Buddha is still subject to aging, disease and death but does not experience them as dukkha ( Nibbana being synonymous with the cessation of dukkha ).

But does this approach work with the "birth" and "being" nidanas? Does it make since to think about a Buddha experiencing physical birth, or indeed experiencing the process of "being" in the 3 realms, assuming that a Buddha is no longer subject to DO?

Spiny

Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:11 am
by Cittasanto
daverupa wrote:Is paticcasamuppada explaining the physical dart, or the mental dart, or both? Because the Buddha's hair & body were seen to grey & wrinkle...
it is explaining the rounds of samsara, the dart is only one aspect of this.

Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:15 am
by Cittasanto
vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,

Several posters are objecting that a "psychological model" of Dependent
Origination does not make sense. They refer to the links "being", "birth"
and "old-age-and-death", as incompatible with any such model.

I cannot give a full explanation on this thread, but I will do so elsewhere.

Briefly, the psychological model interprets these three links as representing
views about self.

Regards, Vincent.
Why can you not do this here?

Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:24 pm
by daverupa
Cittasanto wrote:
daverupa wrote:Is paticcasamuppada explaining the physical dart, or the mental dart, or both? Because the Buddha's hair & body were seen to grey & wrinkle...
it is explaining the rounds of samsara, the dart is only one aspect of this.
This assumes "rounds of rebirth" is the explanatory target of paticcasamuppada, but the target is "dukkha"; "rounds of rebirth" is subsumed under the category 'dukkha' by being included in the 12th nidana.
Spiny O'Norman wrote:Good point. Paticcasamuppada describes the dependent origination of dukkha, and as I understand it dukkha represents the mental dart only... But does this approach work with the "birth" and "being" nidanas?
It must; the birth nidana is not "births", but the conceiving on/in/around/from "my" birth; and similarly "my" death, encapsulating "my life" as a string of experiences happening "to me" and resulting in "my memories and values, who I am" - sakkaya-ditthi underwritten by asmimana, which is to say, avijja.

Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:56 pm
by Spiny O'Norman
daverupa wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:Good point. Paticcasamuppada describes the dependent origination of dukkha, and as I understand it dukkha represents the mental dart only... But does this approach work with the "birth" and "being" nidanas?
It must; the birth nidana is not "births", but the conceiving on/in/around/from "my" birth; and similarly "my" death, encapsulating "my life" as a string of experiences happening "to me" and resulting in "my memories and values, who I am" - sakkaya-ditthi underwritten by asmimana, which is to say, avijja.
So you're saying that it's not birth or being in the 3 realms which constitute dukkha, but the way we experience these things?

Spiny

Re: SN 12.20 Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:00 pm
by Cittasanto
daverupa wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
daverupa wrote:Is paticcasamuppada explaining the physical dart, or the mental dart, or both? Because the Buddha's hair & body were seen to grey & wrinkle...
it is explaining the rounds of samsara, the dart is only one aspect of this.
This assumes "rounds of rebirth" is the explanatory target of paticcasamuppada, but the target is "dukkha"; "rounds of rebirth" is subsumed under the category 'dukkha' by being included in the 12th nidana.
no, it assumes samsara is a verb, something done. but as the list ends
Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
Dukkha is a characteristic of samsara so in describing samsara Dukkha is present, as is often the case. there are other characteristics which can be seen within DO, such as anicca which can be seen represented in both its forward and backward motions, or not-self as the sequence clearly describes a universal process not a functioning of a self as better seen in SN12.35

but how does your interpretation of birth fit with any of the suttas descriptions?
how about the SN15 group as an example?

but to answer a question earlier, and hopefully cover a few other points.
Spiny O'Norman wrote:But does this approach work with the "birth" and "being" nidanas? Does it make since to think about a Buddha experiencing physical birth, or indeed experiencing the process of "being" in the 3 realms, assuming that a Buddha is no longer subject to DO?
The Buddha was still subject to the previously accumulated cycle which commenced at his birth, as can be seen in texts such as the Anguilimala sutta, where Angulimala still received results of his previous deeds, there is still a process happening, Kamma still plays out (there are four kinds of Kamma, with an Enlightened being now solely doing "Neither Light or Dark Kamma"). They have broken the chain so the process will end in parinibbana, the final cooling, if the process ended at enlightenment there would be no teaching as the whole process would cease then, i.e. they would die at that point. remember an Arahant is still an individual even though all Arahants are of the same mind, which shows to some degree that there is a process still at work from there previous unenlightened state, otherwise they would all be one and the same in every way.