Snp 5.3 Punnaka-manava-puccha

Each week we study and discuss a different sutta or Dhamma text

Moderator: mikenz66

Snp 5.3 Punnaka-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:30 am

Snp 5.3 PTS: Sn 1043-1048
Punnaka-manava-puccha: Punnaka's Questions
translated from the Pali by John D. Ireland

[The Venerable Punnaka:]
"To him who is free from craving, who has seen the root (of things)[1] I have come with a question: for what reason did sages, warriors, brahmanas and other men prepare, here in this world, various sacrificial gifts for the gods (devata)? I ask the Lord this, let him tell me the answer."

[The Lord:]
"Whatever sages, warriors, brahmanas and other men, Punnaka, prepared various sacrificial gifts for the gods, they did so in the hope of this or that (future) existence, being induced by (the fact of) old age and decay."

[Punnaka:]
"By preparing various sacrificial gifts for the gods, being zealous in sacrificing, do they cross beyond birth and decay, Lord?"

[The Lord:]
"They hope and extol, pray and sacrifice for things of the senses, Punnaka. For the sake of such reward they pray. These devotees of sacrifice, infatuated by their passion for existence,[2] do not cross beyond birth and decay, I say."

[Punnaka:]
"If these devotees of sacrifice do not cross beyond birth and decay through sacrifice, Sir, then by what practice does one cross beyond birth and decay in this world of gods and men?"

[The Lord:]
"He who has comprehended in the world the here and the beyond, in whom there is no perturbation by anything in the world, who is calm, free from the smoldering fires,[3] untroubled and desireless — he has crossed beyond birth and decay, I say."

Notes

1. "The root of unwholesome actions, etc." (Comy). There are six roots or basic conditions in a person leading to the performance of unwholesome (unskilled) and wholesome (skilled) actions: greed, aversion, delusion, non-greed (renunciation, detachment), non-aversion (love) and non-delusion(wisdom). The Buddha has seen and understood this as it really is.

2. Or, "burning with lust for life."

3. The three "fires" of greed, aversion and delusion. This is a punning reference, also to be seen in the previous note, to the brahmana's sacrificial fire.
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10231
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Snp 5.3 Punnaka-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:38 am

Snp 5.3 PTS: Sn 1043-1048
Punnaka-manava-puccha: Punnaka's Questions
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

[Punnaka:]
To the one unperturbed,
who has seen the root [of all things],
I have come with a question.
Because of what have many human seers
— noble warriors, brahmans —
offered sacrifices to devas here in the world? I ask you, O Blessed One.
Please tell me.

[The Buddha:]
Those many human seers
— noble warriors, brahmans —
who have offered sacrifices to devas
here in the world,
Punnaka, hoping for more of this state of being,
offered their sacrifices
because of aging.

[Punnaka:]
Those many human seers
— noble warriors, brahmans —
who have offered sacrifices to devas
here in the world: Have they,
O Blessed One, heeding the path of sacrifice,
crossed over birth & aging?
I ask you, O Blessed One.
Please tell me.

[The Buddha:]
They hoped for, liked,
longed for,
so sacrificed —
they longed for sensuality,
dependent on gain.
I tell you:
those who take on the yoke
of sacrifice,
impassioned with
the passion for becoming,
have not crossed over birth & aging.

[Punnaka:]
If those who take on the yoke of sacrifice
haven't crossed over the flood, dear sir,
then who in the world of beings divine & human
has crossed over birth & aging?
I ask you, O Blessed One.
Please tell me.

[The Buddha:]
He who has fathomed
the far & near in the world,
for whom there is nothing perturbing in the world —
his vices evaporated,
undesiring, untroubled,
at peace —
he, I tell you, has crossed over birth
& aging.

Note

AN 3.32 http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/Anguttara-Nikaya/an3-31-40.htm#32 and AN 4.41 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.041.than.html contain discussions of the last verse in this poem.

In AN 3.32, Ven. Ananda asks the Buddha, "Could it be that a monk could attain a concentration of such a sort such that, with regard to this conscious body, he would have no 'I'-making or 'mine'-making or obsession of conceit, such that with regard to all external themes [topics of concentration] he would have no 'I'-making or 'mine'-making or obsession of conceit, and that he would enter & remain in the awareness-release & discernment-release in which there is no 'I'-making or 'mine'-making or obsession of conceit?"

The Buddha answers that it is possible, and that such a concentration can be attained when one is percipient in this way: "This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all mental processes; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding." He then adds that it was in connection to this state of mind that he uttered the last verse in this poem.

In AN 4.41 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.041.than.html, the Buddha identifies four ways of developing concentration: "There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents." (For details, see AN 4.41) The Buddha then adds that he uttered the last verse of this poem in connection with these four ways of developing concentration.
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10231
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

AN 3.32 Anandasutta - To venerable Ananda.

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:41 am

AN 3.32 Anandasutta - To venerable Ananda.
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/A ... -40.htm#32

32. Then venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One, worshipped sat on side and said thus to the Blessed One:- Venerable sir, is there a kind of concentration, in which there does not arise latent tendencies of measuring as `I be' and `it is to me' in this sixfold conscious body, and externally on account of any signs. In which concentration, the mind is released and released through wisdom and in which one abides without the latent tendencies of measuring as `I be' and `it is to me'?

Ananda, there is such a concentration, in which there does not arise latent tendencies of measuring as `I be' and `it is to me' in this sixfold conscious body, and externally on account of any signs. In which concentration one abides, the mind released and released through wisdom, without the latent tendencies of measuring as `I be' and `it is to me' and one could abide in it.

Venerable sir, how is that concentration?

Ananda, here, it occurs to the bhikkhu:- This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, giving up of all substratum, destruction of craving, non attachment, cessation and extinction. Ananda, in this manner there is to the bhikkhu a concentration in which there does not arise latent tendencies of measuring as `I be' and `it is to me' in this sixfold conscious body, and externally on account of any signs. In this concentration, the mind is released and released through wisdom, one abides without the latent tendencies of measuring as `I be' and `it is to me' and in which one could abide.

Ananda, it was on account of this, that I had answered thus to Punnaka in the Parayanavagga:-

Destroying everything high and low, if he does not tremble,

Is appeased, emancipated, without confusion and desires,

I say, he has crossed birth and decay.
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10231
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Snp 5.3 Punnaka-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:05 am

This line occurs frequently:
This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, giving up of all substratum, destruction of craving, non attachment, cessation and extinction.


And is used by Bhikkhu Ñanananda as the introduction to all of his Nibbana Sermons:
http://www.beyondthenet.net/calm/nibbana01.htm
"This is peaceful, this is excellent, namely the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction".

Which references it to
MN64 Maha-Malunkhyaputta Sutta
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/M ... /mn-64.htm
Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction (* 1). With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things. He arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds, of the sensual world, not to proceed. Ananda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world.

1. He turns the mind to the deathless element. This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments. the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction ‘so tehi dhammehi citta.m pa.tivaapetvaa amataaya dhaatuyaa citta.m upsanharati: eta.m santan eta.m paniita.m yadhida.m sabba sankhaarasamatho suabbupddhipa.tnissaggo ta.nhakkhayo viraago nirodho nibbaana.m ti’ The method adopted to dispel the five lower bonds of the sensual world is, thorough reflection after attaining to one or the other of the jhanas and the higher absorptions, in due order. This is the stage of not returning to the sensual world He becomes a non-returner,’anaagaami’. Determinations are threefold, as bodily, verbal and mental and their appeasement also happens in the attainment of the jhanas. Endearments are dealt in the Ariyapariyesanasutta.m. M. I .26.


Bhikkhus Nanamoli and Bodhi translate this as:
Whatever exists therein [jhanas or formless attainments] of feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self.
He turns his mind away from those states [jhanas or formless attainments] and directs it towards the deathless element thus:
'This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbana.'
If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that desire for the Dhamma [657] then with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously [in the pure abodes], and there attain final Nibbana without ever returning from that world. This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower states.

[657] Dhammaragena dhammanandiya. MA: These two terms signify desire and attachment (chandaraga) with respect to serenity and insight. If one is able to discard all desire and attachment concerning serenity and insight, one becomes an arahant; if one cannot discard them, one becomes an non-returner and is reborn in the Pure Abodes.


Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10231
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

AN 4.41 Samadhi Sutta: Concentration

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:40 am

AN 4.41 PTS: A ii 44 Samadhi Sutta: Concentration
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

"These are the four developments of concentration.

"And it was in connection with this that I stated in Punnaka's Question in the Way to the Far Shore [Sn 5.3]:
'He who has fathomed
the far & near in the world,
for whom there is nothing perturbing in the world —
his vices evaporated,
undesiring, untroubled,
at peace —
he, I tell you, has crossed over birth & aging.'"
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10231
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Snp 5.3 Punnaka-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:21 am

OK, so we have the two translations of the final verse:
Sn 5.3 wrote:He who has fathomed the far & near in the world,
for whom there is nothing perturbing in the world —
his vices evaporated, undesiring, untroubled, at peace —
he, I tell you, has crossed over birth & aging.

"He who has comprehended in the world the here and the beyond,
in whom there is no perturbation by anything in the world,
who is calm, free from the smoldering fires, untroubled and desireless —
he has crossed beyond birth and decay, I say."

Elaborated in two ways.

Perhaps the first is an elaboration on:
"He who has comprehended in the world the here and the beyond"
AN 4.41 wrote:There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

And the second an elaboration on:
"in whom there is no perturbation by anything in the world"
AN 3.32 (and somewhat similarly in MN 64) wrote:Ananda, here, it occurs to the bhikkhu:- This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, giving up of all substratum, destruction of craving, non attachment, cessation and extinction. Ananda, in this manner there is to the bhikkhu a concentration in which there does not arise latent tendencies of measuring as `I be' and `it is to me' in this sixfold conscious body, and externally on account of any signs. In this concentration, the mind is released and released through wisdom, one abides without the latent tendencies of measuring as `I be' and `it is to me' and in which one could abide.

Thoughts?

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10231
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Snp 5.3 Punnaka-manava-puccha

Postby cooran » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:15 am

Hello Mike,

I don’t have any discussion as such of this topic – just wanted to express appreciation of this thread, and the format of connected subject matter in a few suttas. Very interesting, and I found myself murmuring ‘’Oh yes – that’s right’’ and ‘’Hmmm, hadn’t connected that in just that way...’’.

Thanks! Glad your overseeing this forum, I don’t comment usually, but get a lot out of reading the threads.

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7491
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Snp 5.3 Punnaka-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:29 am

Thanks Chris!

This final chapter of the Sn is particularly interesting with it's links to the various AN and SN suttas.

It's worth also checking out the F. Max Müller translation: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uho ... &q&f=false

And Anandajoti Bhikkhu's translation and readings (it's always good to hear the Dhamma...)
http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... avaggo.pdf
http://www.archive.org/details/The-Way-to-the-Beyond
He also gives an analysis of the text here: http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... udy-01.htm

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10231
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Snp 5.3 Punnaka-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:24 am

Any comments on my interpretations up here: viewtopic.php?f=25&p=95712#p95695 before we start another Sutta?

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10231
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand


Return to Study Group

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests