Nibbana

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Re: Nibbana

Postby teacup_bo » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:44 am

kowtaaia wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
kowtaaia wrote:Nibbana exists.


Nibbana exists where, and how?



Where you aren't. It is when conditioning comes to an end.


Thankyou for your pointing, kow.

Image

kowtaaia - what does your avatar say? I can't read it completely.

Thankyou.
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Re: Nibbana

Postby kowtaaia » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:54 am

You're welcome.

What if they gave a war and nobody came...
Where thought arises and where it dissolves,
There you should abide, O my son.



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Re: Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:54 am

kowtaaia wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
kowtaaia wrote:Nibbana exists.


Nibbana exists where, and how?



Where you aren't. It is when conditioning comes to an end.


What sort of conditioning and where aren't I?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nibbana

Postby Element » Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:29 am

kowtaaia wrote:It is when conditioning comes to an end.

Nibbana is the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion. Nibbana is unshakeable freedom of mind.

Nibbana is beyond conditioning and non-conditioning. Buddha said:
One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within.

MN 140

The tranqilising of formations that occurs in concentration is not Nibbana although connected to Nibbana (MN 29 & 30).

Nibbana is freedom. It is beyond the "fragile cotton wool state" of "when conditioning comes to an end".
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Re: Nibbana

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:31 am

Greetings Element,

Element wrote:The tranqilising of formations that occurs in concentration is not Nibbana although connected to Nibbana.


Would you care to elaborate upon the the nature of that connection?

Is the difference that one is coupled with the assurance that there can no longer be a basis for further becoming?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Nibbana

Postby Element » Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:43 am

retrofuturist wrote:The tranqilising of formations that occurs in concentration is not Nibbana although connected to Nibbana.

Would you care to elaborate upon the the nature of that connection?

It is stream to Nibbana. It is baby Nibbana and teenage Nibbana. But if it is attached to or fixated on the unconditioned, it is "cotton wool" Nibbana rather than fearless free Nibbana. Whilst Buddha mentioned the uncreated (asankhata), he emphasised the cessation of greed, hatred and delusion as Nibbana.

Nibbana is deliverance via insight knowledge or vipassana nanna.

When an unenlightened being sees a baby deficate & urinate or spill food on the carpet, generally they remain relatively calm because they understand with wisdom it is the nature of a baby to do such things. A baby has no conscious volition or choice.

Similarly, Nibbana is peace that comes from understanding or wisdom. Whilst the mind is "unconditioned", it is unconditioned due to wisdom rather than due to disregarding or the quieting of thought.

For example, Krishnamurti teaches about peace from the ending of thought. However, this is not Nibbana. This is immaterial jhana, such as the sphere of nothingness or the sphere of infinite space. Buddha Nibbana comes due to the functioning of wisdom erradicating defilement.
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Re: Nibbana

Postby kowtaaia » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:48 pm

Element wrote:
kowtaaia wrote:It is when conditioning comes to an end.

Nibbana is the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion. Nibbana is unshakeable freedom of mind.

Nibbana is beyond conditioning and non-conditioning. Buddha said:
One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within.

MN 140

The tranqilising of formations that occurs in concentration is not Nibbana although connected to Nibbana (MN 29 & 30).

Nibbana is freedom. It is beyond the "fragile cotton wool state" of "when conditioning comes to an end".


The psychological phenomenon is the conditioned state. The unconditioned is manifest when conditioning comes to an end. It's very simple. It has nothing to do with concentration, which is the focusing of thought, the conditioned.
Where thought arises and where it dissolves,
There you should abide, O my son.



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Re: Nibbana

Postby kowtaaia » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:57 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
What sort of conditioning and where aren't I?

Conditioning, period. The second part of the question has already been answered.
Where thought arises and where it dissolves,
There you should abide, O my son.



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Re: Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:15 pm

Conditioning, period. The second part of the question has already been answered.


Since this is a Theravadin forum, please be kind enough to back this up with a few quotes from the Pali suttas.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nibbana

Postby Element » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:30 pm

kowtaaia wrote:The psychological phenomenon is the conditioned state. The unconditioned is manifest when conditioning comes to an end. It's very simple. It has nothing to do with concentration, which is the focusing of thought, the conditioned.

The word Nibbana means "not piercing; without pain". Many searched for Nibbana and had their version of Nibbana.

In Buddhism, Nibbana is not the cessation of thought per se but the cessation of defilement.

There is a difference. There can be thought without defilement. There can be no thought but not the final uprooting of defilement.

In Buddhism, there are the immaterial jhanas. Whilst they do not involve the focusing of thought, they are considered concentration.

The spheres of infinite space and infinite consciousness are not the focusing of thought but they are concentration or calming abidings (MN 8).

Concentration is best described as the tranquillising of thought.

The view that samadhi is the focusing of thought is a major obstacle for meditators.

Whilst the mind naturally focuses or converges in samadhi or jhana, this natural focusing is born from abandoning or letting go.

A metaphor may be required here. Concentration does not arise from the hitting of a hammer on a nail. Concentration arises from pulling the plug out of a bath tub which allows the water to swirl as a whirlpool through the outlet. Right samadhi is born from pulling out the plug.

The Buddha said in MN 117: "Noble right concentration has right view as its forerunner and support".

‘The removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion is the designation for the element of Nibbana…. is the Deathless. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way’.

SN 45.7
Last edited by Element on Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nibbana

Postby clw_uk » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:55 pm

A metaphor may be required here. Concentration does not arise from the hitting of a hammer on a nail. Concentration arises from pulling the plug out of the bath tub which allows the water to swirl as a whirlpool through the outlet. Right samadhi is born from pulling out the plug



:goodpost:

Thanks for that metaphor Element, couldnt have put it better myself :smile:
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
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Re: Nibbana

Postby kowtaaia » Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:37 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Conditioning, period. The second part of the question has already been answered.


Since this is a Theravadin forum, please be kind enough to back this up with a few quotes from the Pali suttas.

Let's see, now. In response to "It (the unconditioned) is when conditioning comes to an end."

...you asked: "What sort of conditioning...?"

...the response was: "Conditioning, period."

Your request for citation, doesn't make sense. Hopefully, a Theravadin forum doesn't exclude common sense. After all, the Buddha never said "one plus one, equals two". Does that mean it doesn't?
Where thought arises and where it dissolves,
There you should abide, O my son.



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Re: Nibbana

Postby kowtaaia » Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:42 pm

Element wrote:
kowtaaia wrote:The psychological phenomenon is the conditioned state. The unconditioned is manifest when conditioning comes to an end. It's very simple. It has nothing to do with concentration, which is the focusing of thought, the conditioned.

The word Nibbana means "not piercing; without pain". Many searched for Nibbana and had their version of Nibbana.

In Buddhism, Nibbana is not the cessation of thought per se but the cessation of defilement.

There is a difference. There can be thought without defilement. There can be no thought but not the final uprooting of defilement.

In Buddhism, there are the immaterial jhanas. Whilst they do not involve the focusing of thought, they are considered concentration.

The spheres of infinite space and infinite consciousness are not the focusing of thought but they are concentration or calming abidings (MN 8).

Concentration is best described as the tranquillising of thought.

The view that samadhi is the focusing of thought is a major obstacle for meditators.

Whilst the mind naturally focuses or converges in samadhi or jhana, this natural focusing is born from abandoning or letting go.

A metaphor may be required here. Concentration does not arise from the hitting of a hammer on a nail. Concentration arises from pulling the plug out of a bath tub which allows the water to swirl as a whirlpool through the outlet. Right samadhi is born from pulling out the plug.

The Buddha said in MN 117: "Noble right concentration has right view as its forerunner and support".

‘The removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion is the designation for the element of Nibbana…. is the Deathless. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way’.

SN 45.7


Nibbana is cessation. Nibbana is unconditioned. The psychological phenomenon is the conditioned state, the reality of thought. Ipso facto, the unconditioned is not manifest when thought is functioning. If there is no thought, there is no inner to be defiled, no greed, no hatred and no delusion.

Right concentration, if it means anything at all, is focus without exclusion. That cannot be brought about by concentration (which is exclusion), but only by an inclusive attention that comes to the particular.
Where thought arises and where it dissolves,
There you should abide, O my son.



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Re: Nibbana

Postby Element » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:45 am

kowtaaia wrote:Nibbana is cessation. Nibbana is unconditioned.

Dhammanando has explained the matter precisely in Cessation & Awakening.

It is important to remember the Buddha had the eye of stainless insight.

[EDIT: Section about "our students" removed... and subsequent offtopic posts. - Retro.]
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Re: Nibbana

Postby teacup_bo » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:07 pm

Element wrote:it is "cotton wool" Nibbana rather than fearless free Nibbana.


Hogwash. :popcorn:
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Re: Nibbana

Postby Dhammanando » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:19 pm

Hi Teacup,

teacup_bo wrote:
Element wrote:it is "cotton wool" Nibbana rather than fearless free Nibbana.


Hogwash. :popcorn:


Would you care to expand on this? With no accompanying clarification it just looks like a rather unhelpful insult.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Nibbana

Postby Prasadachitta » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:11 pm

Here is a quote from one of my teachers seminars regarding what conditions samsara.


The only definitions of the ‘unconditioned’ [asaṅkhata / asaṃskṛta] that I’ve found in the Pāli suttas are:
At Sāvatthi: Bhikkhus, I will teach you the ‘unconditioned’ [asaṅkhata] and the path leading to
the unconditioned. Listen to that … And what, bhikkhus, is the unconditioned? The
destruction of greed [lobha] ... hatred [dosa] ... and delusion [moha]: this is called the
unconditioned.
And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Mindfulness directed to the
body: this is called the path leading to the unconditioned. [S iv. 359f.; ‘Connected Discourses
on the Unconditioned’]15
This definition of the ‘unconditioned’ is repeated verbatim in the following 38 suttas, with added
variations as to the path to the ‘unconditioned’ such as ‘serenity and insight’, ‘concentration with
thought and examination’, ‘the emptiness concentration, the signless concentration, the unbiased
concentration’, ‘the Eightfold Path’, etc. ‘Unconditioned’ here implies a state of being

unconditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion, or, we could add, conditioned by the āsravas, or
any factors that create samsara

14 See also: S ii. 26, and S iii. 96-100.
15 Translated in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s Connected Discourses of the Buddha, Vol. II.
11



So Basically if conditions do not include the outflows then those conditions are unconditioned. I think it is folly to say that there are no other conditions than the outflows. I think Nirvanna is best described as lacking conditions which cause suffering but I also think we can associate it with eternally ever changing conditions free of outflows.

Thats My take anyway.

When I contemplate what it means to be free of unwholesome Biases It occurs to me that we only end up underestimating the cosmic potential this represents.

Metta

Gabriel
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Re: Nibbana

Postby Dhammanando » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:55 pm

Hi Gabriel,

gabrielbranbury wrote:I think Nirvanna is best described as lacking conditions which cause suffering but I also think we can associate it with eternally ever changing conditions free of outflows.


I don't think we can.

    Saṅkhata-lakkhaṇa Sutta

    tīṇimāni, bhikkhave, saṅkhatassa saṅkhatalakkhaṇāni. katamāni tīṇi? uppādo paññāyati, vayo paññāyati, ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ paññāyati. imāni kho, bhikkhave, tīṇi saṅkhatassa saṅkhatalakkhaṇānī ti.

    "There are, bhikkhus, these three conditioned characteristics of the conditioned. Which three? Arising is manifest. Disappearance is manifest. The changing of what persists is manifest. These, bhikkhus, are the three conditioned characteristics of the conditioned."
    (AN. i. 152)

    Asaṅkhata-lakkhaṇa Sutta

    tīṇimāni, bhikkhave, asaṅkhatassa asaṅkhatalakkhaṇāni. katamāni tīṇi? na uppādo paññāyati, na vayo paññāyati, na ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ paññāyati. imāni kho, bhikkhave, tīṇi asaṅkhatassa asaṅkhatalakkhaṇānī ti.

    "There are, bhikkhus, these three unconditioned characteristics of the unconditioned. Which three? No arising is manifest. No disappearance is manifest. No changing of what persists is manifest. These, bhikkhus, are the three unconditioned characteristics of the unconditioned."
    (ibid)

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Nibbana

Postby Prasadachitta » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:55 pm

Hi Dhammanando,

After the bit I posted above my teacher goes on to state.

The other definition states:

Monks, there are these three conditioned marks of the conditioned [saṅkhatassa saṅkhattalakkhaṇāni].
What three?
Its origination [uppado] is discerned [paññāyati], its passing away [vayo] is discerned, its
changeability while it persists [ṭhitassa aññnathattaṃ] is discerned. These are the three
conditioned marks of the conditioned.
Monks, there are these three unconditioned marks of the unconditioned [asaṅkhatassa
asaṅkhatta-lakkhaṇāni]. Its origination is not discerned [na paññāyati], its passing away is
not discerned, its changeability while it persists aññnathattaṃ] is not discerned. These are the
three unconditioned marks of the unconditioned. [A i. 152; ‘Numerical Discourses of the
Buddha’, p55, Bhikkhu Bodhi ]

This latter account of the distinction between the conditioned and the unconditioned in terms of
‘marks’ I would regard as proto-abhidharma, and therefore late. It also reflects the later doctrine
of ‘momentariness’, not found in the suttas, being an abhidharma creation.


I just thought I would show that he has considered the sutta you site. I find that the only definition of conditioned v/s unconditioned which makes any sense on the level of conventional understanding is one that refers to a particular type of conditioning. Of course I am open to the possibility of what we might call an unconventional type of understanding and this could be what is being pointed to by the second definition. In other words I do not necessarily regard the Sutta you site in the same way as my teacher has stated above.

Metta

Gabriel
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Re: Nibbana

Postby Dhammanando » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:25 pm

Hi Gabriel,

gabrielbranbury wrote:Hi Dhammanando,

After the bit I posted above my teacher goes on to state.

[...]

This latter account of the distinction between the conditioned and the unconditioned in terms of
‘marks’ I would regard as proto-abhidharma, and therefore late. It also reflects the later doctrine
of ‘momentariness’, not found in the suttas, being an abhidharma creation.


Well, that's a little ironic. This sutta is most often cited by those who seek to refute the ābhidhammikas' conception of momentariness!

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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