Nibbana

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Re: Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:47 am

boris wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
boris wrote:It is full picture isn't it?

Obviously, not as you are painting it.


What is wrong in it?
Nothing, except it looks at the arahant from one perspective only. In that perspective there is no thing that can be said about the tathagata, but in a more mundane sense, which can be used to illustrate the tilakkhana, which is a legitmate of talking about things (but not the full picture), arahants, Buddhas and worldings, grow old, get sick, and die, which is illustrated quite graphically in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nibbana

Postby boris » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:03 am

Shell we call the first just arahat or ariya perspective and the second one - more mundane, in your words - puthujjana perspective?
Is it not our job to change our perspective from the second one to the ariya perspective? One pretty famous theravada monk and scholar during "dyeing"process was shouting "I am dying, I am dying". Surely at that time he saw "self" or more simply himself as a subject to death.

Yes, I think Buddha can say :"I am old" and this is probably your mundane sense. The problem is so puthujjana really believes "I am so and so", I was born and I will die. Otherwise Buddha would not put so strong emphasis on disidentification "This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self". Who sees dependent arising sees Dhamma, so dependent arising is the most important perspective to acquire and in this perspective death is impermanent, conditioned and dependently arisen.
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

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Re: Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:13 am

boris wrote:Shell we call the first just arahat or ariya perspective and the second one - more mundane, in your words - puthujjana perspective?
Only if you want to call the Four Noble Truths a "puthujjana perspective."

Is it not our job to change our perspective from the second one to the ariya perspective?
It is our job to pay attention to the context within which the Buddha is speaking.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nibbana

Postby boris » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:18 am

So have a good dying -in mundane sense of course- I will stay on position that I was never born and as such I will never die in any sense, mundane or not.
Of course body is born and body will die but this is not my problem. If I see problem there is only one explanation - Still there is attachment to the body.
Word death applies only to the body. But when is ignorance it applies also to the self. What do you think, that misguided monk when shouting "I am dying" it was only in mundane sense?
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

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Re: Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:24 am

boris wrote: I will stay on position that I was never born and as such I will never die in any sense, mundane or not.

Certainly a lot of "I"s in that sentence, and unless you are awakened I would guess, not just life to life, but throughout the day there are a lot of "I"s dying and being reborn in the mind/body process you call Boris.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nibbana

Postby puthujjana » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:45 am

boris wrote:One pretty famous theravada monk and scholar during "dyeing"process was shouting "I am dying, I am dying".

About whom are you talking?
"Once you understand anatta, then the burden of life is gone. You’ll be at peace with the world. When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness and we can truly be happy."
- Ajahn Chah
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Re: Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:49 am

puthujjana wrote:
boris wrote:One pretty famous theravada monk and scholar during "dyeing"process was shouting "I am dying, I am dying".

About whom are you talking?

I know of whom he speaks, but I really wonder if dragging the good monk into this discussion this way is helpful.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nibbana

Postby boris » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:50 am

tiltbillings wrote:
boris wrote: I will stay on position that I was never born and as such I will never die in any sense, mundane or not.

Certainly a lot of "I"s in that sentence, and unless you are awakened I would guess, not just life to life, but throughout the day there are a lot of "I"s dying and being reborn in the mind/body process you call Boris.


You are right :smile: I am. And there is a lot of "I" in that sentence. However it seems to me that you do not discriminate ignorance as being on two levels logical and pre-logical . Ignorance on pre-logical level -concept "I am" is present even in ariya experience. But all ariya are free from identification "I am a body".
Last edited by boris on Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

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Re: Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:53 am

boris wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
boris wrote: I will stay on position that I was never born and as such I will never die in any sense, mundane or not.

Certainly a lot of "I"s in that sentence, and unless you are awakened I would guess, not just life to life, but throughout the day there are a lot of "I"s dying and being reborn in the mind/body process you call Boris.


You are right :smile: I am. And there is a lot of "I" in that sentence. However it seems to me that you do not discriminate ignorance as being on to levels logical and pre-logical . Ignorance on pre-logical level -concept "I am" is present even in ariya experience. But all ariya are free from identification "I am a body".
That is nice, though I do not agree with your assessment of what I am and am not doing. We are simply not necessarily going to eye-eye on this.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nibbana

Postby boris » Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:02 am

puthujjana wrote:
boris wrote:One pretty famous theravada monk and scholar during "dyeing"process was shouting "I am dying, I am dying".

About whom are you talking?


I do not mind at all to tell his name, however this information I have from monk who was present at his death. And probably he would not be happy if I directly tell his name. But this kind of death is not uncommon in theravada tradition.
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

Nicolás Gómez Dávila
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Re: Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:09 am

boris wrote:
puthujjana wrote:
boris wrote:One pretty famous theravada monk and scholar during "dyeing"process was shouting "I am dying, I am dying".

About whom are you talking?


I do not mind at all to tell his name, however this information I have from monk who was present at his death. And probably he would not be happy if I directly tell his name. But this kind of death is not uncommon in theravada tradition.

And you have attended any large number of deaths of monks in Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand, Loas that you can make such a statement?

Monks from other traditions die "better" according to you? You seem to imply such. I take it you are not Theravadin.

I appreciate your rerstraint in not naming the monk in question. That would have served no good purpose at all.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nibbana

Postby boris » Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:22 pm

Yes you are right I am not Theravadin more I am not even Buddhist . However I do study Suttas from Pali Canon in hope to realise cessation of conceit "I am"
I did not mean that mahajana monks are better. Since they do not follow Suttas I do not recognise them as Sangha.

I did such and such statement. And I take responsibility for it. You should know that 95% Asian Theravadins are priests or scholars, they do everything except meditation.
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

Nicolás Gómez Dávila
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Re: Nibbana

Postby vinasp » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:39 am

Hi everyone,

The seventeenth century Catholic preacher Abraham a Santa Clara said :
"A man who dies before he dies, does not die when he dies."

From : Graham Parkes, Heidegger and Asian Thought 1990, page 152.

I believe this truth was well understood by the Buddha. This is why it is said of the arahant "birth has ceased" and "old-age and death has ceased".

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: Nibbana

Postby Will » Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:48 pm

This is a great and useful compilation on Nibbana. It is free in paperback (donations appreciated) and online PDF:

http://www.abhayagiri.org/main/book/1788/
This noble eightfold path is the ancient path traveled by all the Buddhas of eons past. Nagara Sutta
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