Nibbana

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Prasadachitta
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Prasadachitta »

Hi Dhammanando,

I can sort of see why the condition of there being a lack of samsaric conditions can be said to have these three marks of the unconditioned. :shock:

Once this unconditioned condition is discerned it does not arise, pass away or change.
(I think this may be what my teacher is missing. I will have to talk with him about this.)

I dont see why this means we cant also associate this unconditioned condition with other wholesome conditions which do arise, pass away, and change.

This is what I meant when I said...
I think Nirvanna is best described as lacking conditions which cause suffering but I also think we can associate it with eternally ever changing conditions free of outflows.
Metta

Gabriel
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
Element

Re: Nibbana

Post by Element »

teacup_bo wrote:
Element wrote:it is "cotton wool" Nibbana rather than fearless free Nibbana.
Hogwash. :popcorn:
Would you care to expand on this and share your experience of Nibbana with the forum?

Best wishes,
Element
teacup_bo
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Re: Nibbana

Post by teacup_bo »

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Teacup,
teacup_bo wrote:
Element wrote:it is "cotton wool" Nibbana rather than fearless free Nibbana.
Hogwash. :popcorn:
Would you care to expand on this? With no accompanying clarification it just looks like a rather unhelpful insult.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Well for one, this: It is baby Nibbana and teenage Nibbana. But if it is attached to or fixated on the unconditioned, it is "cotton wool" Nibbana rather than fearless free Nibbana.

The Buddha didn't teach different categories of Nibbana.
Last edited by Dhammanando on Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Made clear the distinction between writer's words and quoted content.
rowyourboat
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Re: Nibbana

Post by rowyourboat »

'sabba sankhara samatha' - the tranquilization of formations, another name for nibbana, does not refer to any tranuqilization known in samatha, or 'tranquility' meditation. The term formations or 'sankhara' is a very broad term- here it refers to everything which arises and passes away. Therefore the tranquilization of everything which arises and passes away is nibbana- as Ven dhammanando's sutta quote brilliantly refers to.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Element

Re: Nibbana

Post by Element »

teacup_bo wrote:The Buddha didn't teach different categories of Nibbana.
I think possibly Buddha taught certain practitioners, especially from other religions and sects, mistook certain experiences for Nibbana.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Nibbana

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Element,

So "cotton wool nibbana" isn't nibbana then?

:shrug:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Prasadachitta »

What is going on above?

Dhammanando?

Was there something wrong with my post?

Did you mistakenly write your reply inside my post. :shrug:


Metta :hug:


Gabriel
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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retrofuturist
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Re: Nibbana

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Gabriel,
gabrielbranbury wrote:Did you mistakenly write your reply inside my post. :shrug:
It would appear this is what's happened. This doesn't happen often though I saw someone accidentally do it on another site once.

It is a little confusing, but at least now you'll know what's going on. :)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Gabriel,
gabrielbranbury wrote:Did you mistakenly write your reply inside my post. :shrug:
Yes, I'm very sorry. It's the second time this week I've done this. :embarassed:

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Prasadachitta
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Prasadachitta »

Dhammanando said
There is much that arises and passes away that does not involve gross suffering; and there are some things, like headaches, whose passing away is pleasurable. Nonetheless, with regard to the dukkha of formations (saṅkhāra-dukkha), the Suttas plainly teach that "whatsoever is experienced, all that is included in dukkha."
Then why isnt the first and second noble truth "1)Everything is dukkha and 2)Everything causes dukkha"?



Metta


Gabriel
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Nibbana

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Yes, and I'd also like to know whether that supposedly applies to arahants too.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Prasadachitta »

First Noble Truth
"And what are the five clinging-aggregates that, in short, are stressful? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate: These are called the five clinging-aggregates that, in short, are stressful.
So when clung to the Kandas are stressful. Sort of like if Im late to work driving is stressful but if not there is no stress.
"And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging.
If Kandas are clung to in any of these ways they are stressful.

No Greed, No Hate, No Delusion.... :jedi:

No Problem...

Metta

Gabriel
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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retrofuturist
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Re: Nibbana

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Gabriel,

That is how I understand it too... so I would value any clarification that venerable Dhammanando can provide.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Element

Re: Nibbana

Post by Element »

retrofuturist wrote:So "cotton wool nibbana" isn't nibbana then?
There is final Nibbana and the taste of nibbana. A taste or degree of nibbana is tangibly still nibbana. Better some nibbana than none. I suppose any kind of respite from greed, hatred, delusion & dukkha is some kind of nibbana.
Element

Re: Nibbana

Post by Element »

gabrielbranbury wrote:So when clung to the Kandas are stressful. Sort of like if Im late to work driving is stressful but if not there is no stress.
I would say when there is clinging to the khandas there is stress. Whilst the body becomes stressful, it is the mentality within the body or nervous system that causes the body to be stressful. Similarly, to say feelings become stressful is a bit silly. Feelings are feelings. For example, the eye sees a beautiful form, pleasant feeling, craving and mental proliferation arise. It is the craving and proliferation that is essentially stressful rather than the feeling. I think to say "when clung to the Kandas are stressful' does not really make sense.

In modern psychology, the major theory of motivation is called 'the opponent process theory of motivation'. Here, the scientists have correctly identified it is the stressful nature of craving rather than pleasant feeling per se that motivates seeking behaviour.

In the First Noble Truth, the Buddha is essentially saying clinging is the problem. I think it is best to translate sankitana panchupandana khanda dukkha as 'in short, clinging to the five aggregates is dukkha'.

The problem is clinging rather than the five aggregates.

Kind regards

E
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