Nibbana

[teacup_bo]

Nibbana exists.

Nibbana exists where, and how?

Where you aren't. It is when conditioning comes to an end.

Thankyou for your pointing, kow.



kowtaaia - what does your avatar say? I can't read it completely.

Thankyou.

[kowtaaia]

You're welcome.

What if they gave a war and nobody came...

[tiltbillings]

Nibbana exists.

Nibbana exists where, and how?

Where you aren't. It is when conditioning comes to an end.

What sort of conditioning and where aren't I?

[Element]

It is when conditioning comes to an end.

Nibbana is the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion. Nibbana is unshakeable freedom of mind.

Nibbana is beyond conditioning and non-conditioning. Buddha said:

One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within.

MN 140

The tranqilising of formations that occurs in concentration is not Nibbana although connected to Nibbana (MN 29 & 30).

Nibbana is freedom. It is beyond the "fragile cotton wool state" of "when conditioning comes to an end".

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Element,

The tranqilising of formations that occurs in concentration is not Nibbana although connected to Nibbana.

Would you care to elaborate upon the the nature of that connection?

Is the difference that one is coupled with the assurance that there can no longer be a basis for further becoming?

Metta,
Retro.

[Element]

The tranqilising of formations that occurs in concentration is not Nibbana although connected to Nibbana.

Would you care to elaborate upon the the nature of that connection?

It is stream to Nibbana. It is baby Nibbana and teenage Nibbana. But if it is attached to or fixated on the unconditioned, it is "cotton wool" Nibbana rather than fearless free Nibbana. Whilst Buddha mentioned the uncreated (asankhata), he emphasised the cessation of greed, hatred and delusion as Nibbana.

Nibbana is deliverance via insight knowledge or vipassana nanna.

When an unenlightened being sees a baby deficate & urinate or spill food on the carpet, generally they remain relatively calm because they understand with wisdom it is the nature of a baby to do such things. A baby has no conscious volition or choice.

Similarly, Nibbana is peace that comes from understanding or wisdom. Whilst the mind is "unconditioned", it is unconditioned due to wisdom rather than due to disregarding or the quieting of thought.

For example, Krishnamurti teaches about peace from the ending of thought. However, this is not Nibbana. This is immaterial jhana, such as the sphere of nothingness or the sphere of infinite space. Buddha Nibbana comes due to the functioning of wisdom erradicating defilement.

[kowtaaia]

It is when conditioning comes to an end.

Nibbana is the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion. Nibbana is unshakeable freedom of mind.

Nibbana is beyond conditioning and non-conditioning. Buddha said:

One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within.

MN 140

The tranqilising of formations that occurs in concentration is not Nibbana although connected to Nibbana (MN 29 & 30).

Nibbana is freedom. It is beyond the "fragile cotton wool state" of "when conditioning comes to an end".

The psychological phenomenon is the conditioned state. The unconditioned is manifest when conditioning comes to an end. It's very simple. It has nothing to do with concentration, which is the focusing of thought, the conditioned.

[kowtaaia]

What sort of conditioning and where aren't I?

Conditioning, period. The second part of the question has already been answered.

[tiltbillings]

Conditioning, period. The second part of the question has already been answered.

Since this is a Theravadin forum, please be kind enough to back this up with a few quotes from the Pali suttas.

[Element]

The psychological phenomenon is the conditioned state. The unconditioned is manifest when conditioning comes to an end. It's very simple. It has nothing to do with concentration, which is the focusing of thought, the conditioned.

The word Nibbana means "not piercing; without pain". Many searched for Nibbana and had their version of Nibbana.

In Buddhism, Nibbana is not the cessation of thought per se but the cessation of defilement.

There is a difference. There can be thought without defilement. There can be no thought but not the final uprooting of defilement.

In Buddhism, there are the immaterial jhanas. Whilst they do not involve the focusing of thought, they are considered concentration.

The spheres of infinite space and infinite consciousness are not the focusing of thought but they are concentration or calming abidings (MN 8).

Concentration is best described as the tranquillising of thought.

The view that samadhi is the focusing of thought is a major obstacle for meditators.

Whilst the mind naturally focuses or converges in samadhi or jhana, this natural focusing is born from abandoning or letting go.

A metaphor may be required here. Concentration does not arise from the hitting of a hammer on a nail. Concentration arises from pulling the plug out of a bath tub which allows the water to swirl as a whirlpool through the outlet. Right samadhi is born from pulling out the plug.

The Buddha said in MN 117: "Noble right concentration has right view as its forerunner and support".

‘The removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion is the designation for the element of Nibbana…. is the Deathless. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way’.

SN 45.7

[Ceisiwr]

A metaphor may be required here. Concentration does not arise from the hitting of a hammer on a nail. Concentration arises from pulling the plug out of the bath tub which allows the water to swirl as a whirlpool through the outlet. Right samadhi is born from pulling out the plug

Thanks for that metaphor Element, couldnt have put it better myself

[kowtaaia]

Conditioning, period. The second part of the question has already been answered.

Since this is a Theravadin forum, please be kind enough to back this up with a few quotes from the Pali suttas.

Let's see, now. In response to "It (the unconditioned) is when conditioning comes to an end."

...you asked: "What sort of conditioning...?"

...the response was: "Conditioning, period."

Your request for citation, doesn't make sense. Hopefully, a Theravadin forum doesn't exclude common sense. After all, the Buddha never said "one plus one, equals two". Does that mean it doesn't?

[kowtaaia]

The psychological phenomenon is the conditioned state. The unconditioned is manifest when conditioning comes to an end. It's very simple. It has nothing to do with concentration, which is the focusing of thought, the conditioned.

The word Nibbana means "not piercing; without pain". Many searched for Nibbana and had their version of Nibbana.

In Buddhism, Nibbana is not the cessation of thought per se but the cessation of defilement.

There is a difference. There can be thought without defilement. There can be no thought but not the final uprooting of defilement.

In Buddhism, there are the immaterial jhanas. Whilst they do not involve the focusing of thought, they are considered concentration.

The spheres of infinite space and infinite consciousness are not the focusing of thought but they are concentration or calming abidings (MN 8).

Concentration is best described as the tranquillising of thought.

The view that samadhi is the focusing of thought is a major obstacle for meditators.

Whilst the mind naturally focuses or converges in samadhi or jhana, this natural focusing is born from abandoning or letting go.

A metaphor may be required here. Concentration does not arise from the hitting of a hammer on a nail. Concentration arises from pulling the plug out of a bath tub which allows the water to swirl as a whirlpool through the outlet. Right samadhi is born from pulling out the plug.

The Buddha said in MN 117: "Noble right concentration has right view as its forerunner and support".

‘The removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion is the designation for the element of Nibbana…. is the Deathless. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way’.

SN 45.7

Nibbana is cessation. Nibbana is unconditioned. The psychological phenomenon is the conditioned state, the reality of thought. Ipso facto, the unconditioned is not manifest when thought is functioning. If there is no thought, there is no inner to be defiled, no greed, no hatred and no delusion.

Right concentration, if it means anything at all, is focus without exclusion. That cannot be brought about by concentration (which is exclusion), but only by an inclusive attention that comes to the particular.

[Element]

Nibbana is cessation. Nibbana is unconditioned.

Dhammanando has explained the matter precisely in Cessation & Awakening.

It is important to remember the Buddha had the eye of stainless insight.

[EDIT: Section about "our students" removed... and subsequent offtopic posts. - Retro.]

[teacup_bo]

it is "cotton wool" Nibbana rather than fearless free Nibbana.

Hogwash.