Page 1 of 4
OMG it's a rebirth thread
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:03 pm
by Ngawang Drolma.
Hi friends,
I stumbled across this idea in my own head this morning. Please tell me what you think, and feel free to provide any relevant suttas.
I think I finally understand people's objection to rebirth, or even post-mortem continuation.
Anything that we would consider me, mine, not-mine, etc. etc. is going to decay, rot, and disappear. In fact it's happening right at this moment, as I write this. There is nothing that is mine, and even post-mortem continuation implies that something is
continuing. So it is easy to see how people would mistake
rebirth or continuation as a form of eternalism.
But if you spend time concentrating deeply on impermenance, it becomes obvious that when we use the word emptiness we're also making reference to the immeasurably important truth of impermenance.
Therefore, when we talk about rebirth in any form, we're talking about
becoming. And craving. Though any shred of "I" is subject to change, decay, conditioning, and disapating. What provokes the continuation of samsara and birth is the craving to become. Therefore, that the Buddha taught literal rebrith is fine, if one considers that there's nothing to
re-anything.
I will not have future lives, and I do not have past lives. And I don't
have this life. But out of ignorance there is an ongoing process of becoming that is rooted in dependent origination.
All input is appreciated
Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:08 pm
by Ceisiwr
Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:10 pm
by retrofuturist
Greetings Drolma,
(Just be careful who you say that around... who knows how they'll misinterpret it
)
Metta,
Retro.
Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:18 pm
by retrofuturist
Greetings Drolma,
Drolma wrote:even post-mortem continuation implies that something is continuing.
There is continuation, but it's nothing different to the "ongoing process of becoming that is rooted in dependent origination" which you mention in your post. This becoming occurs now and isn't stopped by conventional death. Hence the term (which I started using, even though it's not an actual Theravadin expression per se) 'post-mortem continuation'.
Metta,
Retro.
Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:19 pm
by Individual
Drolma wrote:Hi friends,
I stumbled across this idea in my own head this morning. Please tell me what you think, and feel free to provide any relevant suttas.
I think I finally understand people's objection to rebirth, or even post-mortem continuation.
Anything that we would consider me, mine, not-mine, etc. etc. is going to decay, rot, and disappear. In fact it's happening right at this moment, as I write this. There is nothing that is mine, and even post-mortem continuation implies that something is
continuing. So it is easy to see how people would mistake
rebirth or continuation as a form of eternalism.
But if you spend time concentrating deeply on impermenance, it becomes obvious that when we use the word emptiness we're also making reference to the immeasurably important truth of impermenance. I saw element write that once and I delighted in it.
Therefore, when we talk about rebirth in any form, we're talking about
becoming. And craving. Though any shred of "I" is subject to change, decay, conditioning, and disapating. What provokes the continuation of samsara and birth is the craving to become. Therefore, that the Buddha taught literal rebrith is fine, if one considers that there's nothing to
re-anything.
I will not have future lives, and I do not have past lives. And I don't
have this life. But out of ignorance there is an ongoing process of becoming that is rooted in dependent origination.
All input is appreciated
Congratulations. You've just figured out why the contentious, drawn-out debates over rebirth are pointless. It's always just a debate between subtle annihilationism ("Metaphorical rebirth", "Modern rebirth") and subtle eternalism ("Literal rebirth", "Traditional rebirth"). If you recognize notself and impermanence clearly, the question, "Where do I go at death?" becomes meaningless.
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Drolma,
Drolma wrote:even post-mortem continuation implies that something is continuing.
There is continuation, but it's nothing different to the "ongoing process of becoming that is rooted in dependent origination". This becoming occurs now and isn't stopped by conventional death. Hence the term (which I started using, even though it's not a Theravadin expression per se) 'post-mortem continuation'.
Metta,
Retro.
Continuation of causality, however. Not atta or vinnana. Ayu (vitality) and vinnana (consciousness) cease at death, without remainder.
With metta
,
Individual
Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:20 pm
by retrofuturist
Best Rebirth Thread Ever.
Metta,
Retro.
Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:33 pm
by Ngawang Drolma.
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Drolma,
Drolma wrote:even post-mortem continuation implies that something is continuing.
There is continuation, but it's nothing different to the "ongoing process of becoming that is rooted in dependent origination" which you mention in your post. This becoming occurs now and isn't stopped by conventional death. Hence the term (which I started using, even though it's not an actual Theravadin expression per se) 'post-mortem continuation'.
Metta,
Retro.
Yes Retro, thanks. There is no
thing that rebirths or continues or becomes. There is no essense to be found. Rather, there is a dynamic
process of becoming that continues through birth, old age, sickness, death, birth, old age, sickness, death, birth, old age, sickness, and death ad nauseum.
Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:35 pm
by Ngawang Drolma.
Continuation of causality, however. Not atta or vinnana. Ayu (vitality) and vinnana (consciousness) cease at death, without remainder.
Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:44 pm
by retrofuturist
Greetings Individual,
Individual wrote:Continuation of causality, however. Not atta or vinnana. Ayu (vitality) and vinnana (consciousness) cease at death, without remainder.
The final moment of consciousness in this life conditions the first moment of consciousness for another conventional being... like that old analogy about lighting a candle with the light of another candle.
Metta,
Retro.
Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:52 pm
by kc2dpt
Drolma wrote:Therefore, that the Buddha taught literal rebrith is fine, if one considers that there's nothing to re-anything.
I heard somewhere he did not teach "rebirth" but rather "again birth" as in "For those who have not made an end to craving, after death there will again be birth."
retrofuturist wrote:Hence the term (which I started using, even though it's not an actual Theravadin expression per se) 'post-mortem continuation'.
Also good.
Individual wrote:vinnana (consciousness) cease at death, without remainder.
It also ceases every moment of life, without remainder.
Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:57 pm
by Ceisiwr
Peter wrote:Drolma wrote:Therefore, that the Buddha taught literal rebrith is fine, if one considers that there's nothing to re-anything.
I heard somewhere he did not teach "rebirth" but rather "again birth" as in "For those who have not made an end to craving, after death there will again be birth."
retrofuturist wrote:Hence the term (which I started using, even though it's not an actual Theravadin expression per se) 'post-mortem continuation'.
Also good.
I believe that this lies more in line with the buddhadhamma than "rebirth" as i stated earlier the word itself implies that something that has gone comes again into being, RE-birth.
One problem i find though with explanations of continuation is the "rebirth" linking consciousness. Isnt consciounsness dependent on Name and Form so i find it hard to see how a rebirth linking consciouness could exsist because it would need name and form which would mean that name and form get taken into another existence after physical death?
Anyone who could clear this up for me i would be very grateful
Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:58 pm
by Ngawang Drolma.
All of a sudden it makes sense why they say "Meditate like your hair was on fire." This very moment has already decayed.
Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:02 pm
by Ngawang Drolma.
clw_uk wrote:Peter wrote:Drolma wrote:Therefore, that the Buddha taught literal rebrith is fine, if one considers that there's nothing to re-anything.
I heard somewhere he did not teach "rebirth" but rather "again birth" as in "For those who have not made an end to craving, after death there will again be birth."
retrofuturist wrote:Hence the term (which I started using, even though it's not an actual Theravadin expression per se) 'post-mortem continuation'.
Also good.
I believe that this lies more in line with the buddhadhamma than "rebirth" as i stated earlier the word itself implies that something that has gone comes again into being, RE-birth.
One problem i find though with explanations of continuation is the "rebirth" linking consciousness. Isnt consciounsness dependent on Name and Form so i find it hard to see how a rebirth linking consciouness could exsist because it would need name and form which would mean that name and form get taken into another existence after physical death?
Anyone who could clear this up for me i would be very grateful
Our skandhas decay and become, including formation. But there was nothing to arise or fall to begin with; the skandhas are purely conditioned out of craving. There is no beginning or end, birth or death. There is only a deluded process and formation is part of it. I think that's why the Buddha didn't teach what we are, but what we're not.
This is what I think, please feel free to correct me, everyone.
Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:02 pm
by Ceisiwr
Drolma wrote:All of a sudden it makes sense why they say "Meditate like your hair was on fire." This very moment has already decayed.
Indeed
I like to think of existence like a card pyramid, existence of anything in any form is built on numerous conditions that when arranged together form something but that formation is so unstable that at any moment it will all come tumbling down and break apart.
Just one of my own similies there lol
Metta
Craig
Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:17 pm
by Ngawang Drolma.
Peter wrote:Drolma wrote:Therefore, that the Buddha taught literal rebrith is fine, if one considers that there's nothing to re-anything.
I heard somewhere he did not teach "rebirth" but rather "again birth" as in "For those who have not made an end to craving, after death there will again be birth."
Cool, thanks Peter
I like it.