Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

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bodom
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Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by bodom »

jcsuperstar wrote:did it take me 10 days to learn it or did it take me all those years of sitting to build up to it? maybe both i dont know.
Thats right. Things are not that simple and clear cut. When the causes and conditions are put into effect the result will manifest in due time be it ten days or ten years.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Freawaru »

jcsuperstar wrote: did it take me 10 days to learn it or did it take me all those years of sitting to build up to it? maybe both i dont know. .
Not to mention that you might have been practising it for the last ten lives or so. According to the Visuddhimagga practice accumulates over the lives - a reason why one should consider practising jhana even if one does not get immediate results.
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Zom
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Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Zom »

While engaged in noticing, the meditator either by himself or through instructions from someone else, comes to this decision: "The brilliant light, and the other things experienced by me, are not the path. Delight in them is merely a corruption of insight.
Brilliant light according to the suttas is a very good point worth developing and IS the path..
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Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Kenshou »

References? Doesn't ring a bell for me. In fact if I remember correctly becoming too enchanted with such things is one of the corruptions of insight, but I'll have to check that.
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Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Zom »

As far as I see, light in meditation is the mind cleansed of hindrances. Don't know why that is a corruption according to the commentaries. In suttas it is said that luminous (abhassara) mind is a very good thing.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After you made the mind like that - the concentration is stable and you can move further:
Anuruddha it occurred to me, when my concentration is limited, my knowledge is limited. With limited knowledge I perceive limited effulgence and see limited forms. When my concentration is limitless, my knowledge is limitless. With limitless knowledge I perceive limitless effulgences and see limitlessforms,throughout the night, throughout the day and throughout the night and day.

Anuruddha, when these minor defilements, such as doubts, non attenton, sloth and torpor, fear, jubilation, wickedness, too much aroused effort, too little effort, various perceptions, thinking too much about forms were dispelled, it occurred to me, now these minor defilements are dispelled and I should develop concentration in a threefold manner. Then I developped concentration with thoughts and discursive thoughts. Developped concentration without thoughts, thinking discursively. Developped concentration without thoughts and without discursive thoughtsDevelopped concentration with joy and without joy. Developped concentration which is equanimity. Then knowledge and vision arose and I knew that my release is unshakeable. This is my last birth. There is no more rebirth.
MN 128
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ma ... lesa-e.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Virgo »

Zom wrote:As far as I see, light in meditation is the mind cleansed of hindrances. Don't know why that is a corruption according to the commentaries. In suttas it is said that luminous (abhassara) mind is a very good thing.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After you made the mind like that - the concentration is stable and you can move further:
Anuruddha it occurred to me, when my concentration is limited, my knowledge is limited. With limited knowledge I perceive limited effulgence and see limited forms. When my concentration is limitless, my knowledge is limitless. With limitless knowledge I perceive limitless effulgences and see limitlessforms,throughout the night, throughout the day and throughout the night and day.

Anuruddha, when these minor defilements, such as doubts, non attenton, sloth and torpor, fear, jubilation, wickedness, too much aroused effort, too little effort, various perceptions, thinking too much about forms were dispelled, it occurred to me, now these minor defilements are dispelled and I should develop concentration in a threefold manner. Then I developped concentration with thoughts and discursive thoughts. Developped concentration without thoughts, thinking discursively. Developped concentration without thoughts and without discursive thoughtsDevelopped concentration with joy and without joy. Developped concentration which is equanimity. Then knowledge and vision arose and I knew that my release is unshakeable. This is my last birth. There is no more rebirth.
MN 128
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ma ... lesa-e.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The light is called nimitta. It is favorable. It comes before jhana. For people who use samatha jhanas as a basis for insight, having gained all the levels of mastery of a jhana, this is a necessary step towards jhana. It is called a corruption of insight because at that moment, insight will not occur since the object is a concept, ie. the nimitta. For Sukkavipassaka it is not necessary.

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Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Kenshou »

There are quite a few interpretations of that idiosyncratic sutta, which Thanissaro points out right in the translation linked to. It makes the most sense to me to take this as a simile and not a call to develop mental hallucinations of lights.
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Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Kenshou »

Perhaps. I'm a little skeptical about such things. Seeing lights, etc, is certainly a real phenomena, I've even had experiences which match up with the traditional description of the light nimitta in the course of concentration practice. However, I found that it was really only during the time that I was under the impression that these were necessary that they would appear, as if I was mentally primed for them. Over time I've found that such experiences, which interesting and even very blissful, did not actually correlate with the overall progress in concentration, they were pretty random, really.

Can such things be utilized in concentration practice? I think that they can. But I don't believe that they are necessary prerequisites. They may be necessary for traditional hard samatha jhana, though unfortunately, as I understand it, such light nimittas in fact don't necessarily appear for everyone.

If your gold standard is Abhidhamma, that's fine, I simply choose to disagree a bit.
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Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Kenshou »

Oh, you've deleted your post. Okay, then.

Also, on the Pabhassara sutta, maybe I'm missing something but it doesn't seem to be referring to meditation practice specifically. I would think that if it were, it might be mentioned. The setup of the sutta describing how defilements come and go and yet the mind remains luminous I believe suggests an interpretation more along the lines of Thanissaro's suggestion:
A more reasonable approach to understanding the statement can be derived from taking it in context: the luminous mind is the mind that the meditator is trying to develop. To perceive its luminosity means understanding that defilements such as greed, aversion, or delusion are not intrinsic to its nature, are not a necessary part of awareness. Without this understanding, it would be impossible to practice. With this understanding, however, one can make an effort to cut away existing defilements, leaving the mind in the stage that MN 24 calls "purity in terms of mind."
However I do notice that "development of the mind" is mentioned. Weather this refers to meditation practice in particular or the path of practice as a whole, I don't think there's enough context to say, though I would lean towards the latter.
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Re: Rasmussen/Snyder "Practicing the Jhanas"

Post by Zom »

But this is not the only place where this luminous mind is mentioned. There are much more suttas where it is said about this luminous mind in the context of jhana. For example: MN 140 - http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/M ... mn-140.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And more places, where jhana mind is also called luminous.
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