Qualities of the elements

[Misty]

Hi, I’m new here and not familiar with most of the language used so I’ll stick to English words and hope it’s okay.
Are the qualities that are represented by the four elements, earth, water, fire and wind, are they used to symbolize the qualities of ignorance?
Is this why we familiarize ourselves with these?

[mikenz66]

Welcome Misty,

In Theravada the four elements are used simply to classify experience of form in terms of hardness, cohesion, heat, and motion. Analysis of experience into these elements is a common meditative approach:

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dic3_d.htm

Dhātu: 'elements', are the ultimate constituents of a whole.

I The 4 physical elements dhātu or mahā-bhūta popularly called earth, water, fire and wind, are to be understood as the primary qualities of matter. They are named in Pāli: pathavī-dhātu, āpo-dhātu, tejo-dhātu, and vāyo-dhātu In Vis.M XI, 2 the four elements are defined thus:,Whatever is characterized by hardness thaddha-lakkkhana is the earth or solid-element; by cohesion ābandhana or fluidity, the water-element; by heating paripācana the fire or heat-element; by strengthening or supporting vitthambhana the wind or motion-element. All four are present in every material object, though in varying degrees of strength. If, for instance, the earth element predominates, the material object is called 'solid', etc.

Dhātu-vavatthāna: 'analysis or determining of the 4 elements', is described in Vis.M XI, 2, as the last of the 40 mental exercises see: bhāvanā In a condensed form this exercise is handed down in D. 22 and M. 10 see: satipatthāna but in detail explained in M. 28, 62, 140. The simile of the butcher in M. 10,Just, o Bhikkhus, as a skilled butcher or butcher's apprentice, after having slaughtered a cow and divided it into separate portions, should sit down at the junction of four highroads; just so does the disciple contemplate this body with regard to the elements; is thus explained in Vis.M XI.:;To the butcher, who rears the cow, brings it to the slaughter-house, ties it, puts it there, slaughters it, or looks at the slaughtered and dead cow, the idea 'cow' does not disappear as long as he has not yet cut the body open and taken it to pieces. As soon, however, as he sits down, after having cut it open and taken it to pieces, the idea 'cow' disappears to him, and the idea 'meat' arises. And he does not think: 'A cow do I sell, or 'A cow do they buy.' Just so, when the Bhikkhu formerly was still an ignorant worldling, layman or a homeless one, the ideas 'living being' or 'man' or 'individual' had not yet disappeared as long as he had not taken this body, whatever position or direction it had, to pieces and analysed it piece by piece. As soon, however, as he analysed this body into its elements, the idea 'living being' disappeared to him, and his mind became established in the contemplation of the elements.

Mike

[Misty]

Thank you

[SarathW]

Hi Misty
What do mean by ignorance?
Is that the ignorance as per Buddhist teaching?

[NotMe]

Is this why we familiarize ourselves with these?

Howdy, Misty. Feelings are one of four things the student uses as a frontier for exploration. The student is to understand the body, another of the four things, as made of the four elements that are felt in different ways as bodily feelings. The other two things, studied similarly, are the mind and its mental states.

At least this is one reason the student is taught to be familiar with the 'dhātu'. Another is the 'anatta' concept. None of the above are 'self'.

metta

[Misty]

Hi
Thank you
I think I misunderstand the dhatus
I read that a liberated mind controls the ayatanas and does not possess the dhatus
I took “does not possess” to mean that a liberated mind does not have dhatus and then associated dhatus with ignorance. Then I think I went further astray wondering if elements symbolized qualities of ignorance.
Perhaps “does not possess” means more like, does not hold tightly onto. A liberated mind has dhatus but does not hold onto them? Does ignorance come in when we hold on to a dhatu? Or is there already a little ignorance in a dhatu and holding on to it causes more ignorance? Do we practice recognizing and not holding onto that little bit of ignorance so that we do not create more bigger ignorance?
Thank you for your patience, I have only one speed with this, slow.
Misty

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Misty,

I read that a liberated mind controls the ayatanas and does not possess the dhatus
I took “does not possess” to mean that a liberated mind does not have dhatus and then associated dhatus with ignorance. Then I think I went further astray wondering if elements symbolized qualities of ignorance.
Perhaps “does not possess” means more like, does not hold tightly onto. A liberated mind has dhatus but does not hold onto them? Does ignorance come in when we hold on to a dhatu?

I can see the dilemma. Hopefully the following sutta extract helps...

"Where earth and water, fire and wind no footing find,
From there it is that currents turn back.
There the whirlpool whirls no more
And there it is that name-and-form
Is held in check in a way complete"

In this case, the elements do not find a foothold in consciousness. How is this so? To take an example from MN1...

“He understands through higher knowledge earth as earth. Having known through higher knowledge earth as earth, let him not imagine ‘earth’ as such, let him not imagine ‘on the earth’, let him not imagine ‘from the earth’, let him not imagine ‘earth is mine’, let him not delight in earth. Why is that? I say it is because it should be well comprehended by him."

Without that mental activity pertaining to "earth", then earth can find no footing in consciousness.

It's by no means a simple matter to understand. Perhaps the following from Bhikkhu Nanananda might help...

It is this elementary name-and-form world that a meditator has to understand, however much he may be conversant with the conventional world. It is for that purpose that a meditator has to pay special attention to those basic components of 'name' - feeling, perception, intention, contact and attention. We find ourselves in a similar situation with regard to the significance of rūpa in nāma-rūpa. Here too we have something deep, but many take nāma-rūpa to mean 'mind and matter'. Like materialists, they think there is a contrast between mind and matter. But according to the Dhamma there is no such rigid distinction. It is a pair that is inter-related. Rūpa exists in relation to 'name' and that is to say that form is known with the help of 'name'. in the definition of 'form’, the four great primaries are mentioned because they constitute the most primary notion of 'form'. Just as much as feeling, perception, intention, contact and attention represent the most primary notion of 'name', conventionally so called, even so the four great primaries form the basis for the primary notion of 'form', as the world understands it.

It is not an easy matter to recognize these primaries. They are evasive like ghosts. But out of their interplay we get the perception of form (rūpasaññā). In fact what is called rūpa in this context is PERCEPTION OF rūpa. It is with reference to the behaviour of the four great elements that the world builds up its concept of form. Its perception, recognition and designation of form is in terms of that behaviour And that behaviour can be known with the help of ‘NAME’.The earth element is recognized through the qualities of hardness and softness, the water element through the qualities of cohesiveness and dissolution, the fire element through hotness and coolness, and the wind element through motion and inflation. In this way one gets acquainted with the nature of the four great primaries. And the perception of form (rūpasaññā) that one has at the back of one's mind, is the net result of that acquaintance. So this is nāma-rūpa. This is one's world.

Metta,
Paul.

[Misty]

Thank you Paul
This helps.
Misty

[Kamran]

Hi, I’m new here and not familiar with most of the language used so I’ll stick to English words and hope it’s okay.
Are the qualities that are represented by the four elements, earth, water, fire and wind, are they used to symbolize the qualities of ignorance?
Is this why we familiarize ourselves with these?

The purpose is to create not-self perception.

Repeated contemplation of the elements is similar to the 32parts of the body contemplation in that it changes your perception of yourself. You get the strong sense that you are just an object of nature, like a rock in the street.

The change of perception is like seeing steak packages in a grocery store vs seeing a cow. When you see steak in the grocery store, you don't think of it as cow.

This meditation is designed to create the same shift of perception regarding yourself.

[NotMe]

Greetings Misty,
' ... this is nāma-rūpa. This is one's world.
Metta,
Paul.

Misty asks the totally right questions.

Totally superb answer. Sadhu!

metta