Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Adamantus
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Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Post by Adamantus »

I've always found prayer (to god) to have huge benefits for me and I can't really live without it. On the other hand I'm very interested in Buddhsim so combining them is difficult. Buddhism is not considered a monotheistic religion so I lot of people think that praying to god and considering yourself a Buddhist are not allowed. I looked up Prayer on dhammawiki and picked out a few things:

"...from the Tipitaka, ‘to beseech, praise and worship with joined hands’ (ayacanti thomayanti panjalika nemassanama, D.I,240)"
This sounds very Christian, to prayer with joined hands. The Buddha said "The things that people long for most; happiness, long life, rebirth in heaven, etc.,cannot, he said, ‘be acquired by vows and prayers’ (na ayacanahetu va na patthanahetu, A.II,47)". I totally agree with this. The idea that Prayer will bring your worldly benefits is wrong and any benefits are benefits of the soul only so I'm in agreement there.

"A prayer (avhayana or pathana) is a collection of words addressed to God or to gods. " - But Buddhsim is without god? This article has some references to Brahmanism which I think came before Buddhism so could this just be a reference to type of Buddhism which still contain aspects of that religion? I consider myself to be Theravadan at present as I'm keen on learning the authentic word of the Buddha.

So can I be Buddhist and still pray to god or do I have to give up on Buddhism :(

:juggling:
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Ben
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Post by Ben »

Buddhism is without an eternally-existing god, creator.
Buddhist cosmology includes realms of different celestial beings but they are samsaric beings who exist for different spans of time before passing away and reappearing elsewhere as a result of the fruition of their kamma.
Some Buddhists pray or propitiate various celestial beings such as Brahma, devas, nats, hungry ghosts (petas) and earthbound demons (yakkhas). However, it's something that you only find in traditional Buddhist cultures and not something that is practiced except a tiny minority of western converts.
A lot of Christians and practitioners of other religions have adopted aspects of Buddhist practice with success. However, most people straddling two religious traditions will eventually come to a point where they become much more serious about one and abandon the other.
Kind regards,
Ben
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samseva
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Post by samseva »

Adamantus wrote:Buddhism is not considered a monotheistic religion so I lot of people think that praying to god and considering yourself a Buddhist are not allowed.
Although, Buddhism does not believe in a creator god, there is no such thing as a "rule" or other not allowing someone to worship or praying to God.
Adamantus wrote: So can I be Buddhist and still pray to god or do I have to give up on Buddhism :(
Yes, without a problem for the first, and no for the second.

Regarding praying in Buddhism, we do not pray as what is usually understood from Christianity. In Buddhism, there are some forms of veneration or "prayer", such as chanting, parittas (protection chants) and simply holding your hands in añjali, contemplating anicca, dukkha and anatta.
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NotMe
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Post by NotMe »

All good, gracious replies. i would emphasis that there are unskillful beliefs about the power of prayer that the Buddha warned against. No "genie in a bottle" you can make a wish and have it be true and no free lunches, so to speak.

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mikenz66
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Post by mikenz66 »

Though there is no creator god in Buddhist cosmology, recollection of the qualities of the devas (celestial beings) is praised:
"There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects the devas, thus: 'There are the Devas of the Four Great Kings, the Devas of the Thirty-three, the Yama Devas, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. Whatever conviction they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well. Whatever learning they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of learning is present in me as well. Whatever generosity they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is present in me as well. Whatever discernment they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of discernment is present in me as well.' As he is recollecting the devas, his mind is calmed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned, just as when gold is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is gold cleansed through the proper technique? Through the use of a furnace, salt earth, red chalk, a blow-pipe, tongs, & the appropriate human effort. This is how gold is cleansed through the proper technique. In the same way, the defiled mind is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is the defiled mind cleansed through the proper technique? There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects the devas...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... call-devas
See also: Belief in Deities (Devas)

:anjali:
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tattoogunman
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Post by tattoogunman »

On other boards that I am a member of when this issue comes up, I usually use the terminology of paying homage to the Buddha as a teacher - not praying to him. So the simple act of holding your hands together in front of a Buddha statue (for example) isn't praying, it's paying homage to the teacher. Take it for what it's worth ;)
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Buddhism has several forms of prayer, though since we do not believe in an Almighty Creator God we appeal to the power of truth. A typical example is found in the verses of the Ratana Sutta.
Ratana Sutta wrote:3. "Whatever treasure there be either here or in the world beyond, whatever precious jewel there be in the heavenly worlds, there is nought comparable to the Tathagata (the perfect One). This precious jewel is the Buddha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.
Similar vows, or asseveration of the truth, can be found in many other places too, where a declaration of the truth is used to heal the sick or gain freedom from danger, such as in the Aṅgulimāla Paritta
Angulimāla Paritta wrote:Sister, since I was born with the Ariyan birth, I have not knowingly and deliberately taken the life of any living being, by this truth may you be well and may your child be well.
The practice of loving-kindness meditation is another form of prayer, wishing happiness and well-being to all beings. It is a form of protection for oneself as well as for others. By protecting others (by undertaking to abstain from killing under any circumstances) one protects oneself from danger.

There's a common misconception in the US that one needs to carry a gun to protect oneself, however, more often than not having a gun puts oneself in danger. Monks are not permitted to carry even a stick as a weapon — they must rely on loving-kindness as their sole protection. Learning Kung Fu and other martial arts is not the teaching of the Buddha.
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NotMe
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Post by NotMe »

tattoogunman wrote:On other boards that I am a member of when this issue comes up, I usually use the terminology of paying homage to the Buddha as a teacher - not praying to him. So the simple act of holding your hands together in front of a Buddha statue (for example) isn't praying, it's paying homage to the teacher. Take it for what it's worth ;)
Tattoogunman! That is the heart of Buddhism as I understand it. It becomes an action that is not habit, it is fresh intent each time, a renewal; each prostrate.
thepea
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Post by thepea »

So can I be Buddhist and still pray to god or do I have to give up on Buddhism :(

:juggling:
God answers prayers, think of this in terms of kamma occurring continuously trillions of times each moment. The question is not about prayer as much as it is about knowing the mind full of craving or aversion.
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Goofaholix
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Post by Goofaholix »

I think you should consider the reasons why you want to pray and consider the reasons why you want to practice Buddhism, then consider if those reasons are compatible. They might be now but one day in future they might not.
tattoogunman wrote:I usually use the terminology of paying homage to the Buddha as a teacher - not praying to him.
Paying homage could be taken as a synonym for prayer, the difference is though the teacher that you are paying homage to died 2500 years ago so you pay homage with that in mind whereas the entitie(s) people pray to are supposed to be "alive" and all pervasive.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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tattoogunman
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Post by tattoogunman »

Goofaholix wrote:I think you should consider the reasons why you want to pray and consider the reasons why you want to practice Buddhism, then consider if those reasons are compatible. They might be now but one day in future they might not.
tattoogunman wrote:I usually use the terminology of paying homage to the Buddha as a teacher - not praying to him.
Paying homage could be taken as a synonym for prayer, the difference is though the teacher that you are paying homage to died 2500 years ago so you pay homage with that in mind whereas the entitie(s) people pray to are supposed to be "alive" and all pervasive.
True - but when I think "prayer", I think people essentially asking an almighty being for something and not just paying respect. But yes, I suppose it does come down to a semantic issue.
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Goofaholix
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Post by Goofaholix »

tattoogunman wrote:True - but when I think "prayer", I think people essentially asking an almighty being for something and not just paying respect. But yes, I suppose it does come down to a semantic issue.
As an example in my experience of Christianity it was only about 10-20% asking for something, it was mostly praise aka paying homage. Muslim prayer appears to be a rote formula, so again not asking for something but rather paying homage I'd expect.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Mohan Gnanathilake
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Post by Mohan Gnanathilake »

When Theravada Buddhists pay respect to the Buddha statue they do not pray to a Buddha in heaven, since the Buddha passed away completely. Theravada Buddhists pay respect to the Buddha statue because they think with deep reverence and gratefulness of his virtues: of his wisdom, his purity and his compassion.
All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with impure mind pain follows him like the wheel the hoof of the ox.
(Dhammapada 1, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)

All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind –made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind happiness follows him like one’s shadow that never leaves.
(Dhammapada 2, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)
thepea
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Post by thepea »

Mohan Gnanathilake wrote:When Theravada Buddhists pay respect to the Buddha statue they do not pray to a Buddha in heaven, since the Buddha passed away completely. Theravada Buddhists pay respect to the Buddha statue because they think with deep reverence and gratefulness of his virtues: of his wisdom, his purity and his compassion.
Are you saying paying respect to Buddha statue is prayer?
davidbrainerd
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Re: Clarifying Buddhist position on prayer

Post by davidbrainerd »

Adamantus wrote:

So can I be Buddhist and still pray to god or do I have to give up on Buddhism :(

:juggling:
Depends on the level of association with other Buddhists you're interested in. If the answer to that is "more than none", then probably they will annoy you into giving up on Buddhism by constantly casting aspersions. (Not necessarily because of the concept of God by itself, but because of its necessary corollary, i.e. that God has a self, because a God with no self is no God at all.)

I would also say I'm not actually aware of a text where Buddha says there is no creator God, only DN 1 where he refuses to answer if the universe is eternal or has a beginning. (Much the same as refusing to answer if there is a self or not is turned into a positive denial of any sort of self, refusal to answer if the universe is eternal or has a beginning is turned into a positive denial of God, in a bit of what could be called over-interpretation)
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