Can karma be purified?

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Ervin
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Can karma be purified?

Post by Ervin »

I am interested in the knowledge of karma. Can past karma be purified and how ?

Thanks
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pilgrim
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Re: Can karma be purified?

Post by pilgrim »

No, past kamma cannot be purified. Its potential effects, however, can be diluted.

"Suppose that a man were to drop a salt crystal into a small amount of water in a cup. What do you think? Would the water in the cup become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink?"

"Yes, lord. Why is that? There being only a small amount of water in the cup, it would become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink."

"Now suppose that a man were to drop a salt crystal into the River Ganges. What do you think? Would the water in the River Ganges become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink?"

"No, lord. Why is that? There being a great mass of water in the River Ganges, it would not become salty because of the salt crystal or unfit to drink."

"In the same way, there is the case where a trifling evil deed done by one individual [the first] takes him to hell; and there is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by the other individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Sam Vara
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Re: Can karma be purified?

Post by Sam Vara »

As well as the sutta recommended by pilgrim, there is also the Devadaha Sutta, which you might find useful.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
It tells us that
it seems that an action to be experienced in the here-&-now cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced in the future life. An action to be experienced in the future life cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced in the here-&-now... An action to be experienced cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action not to be experienced. An action not to be experienced cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced
But that we can strive and exert ourselves in another way: to generate skillful qualities and dispassion towards what makes us suffer in the present moment.
perkele
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Re: Can karma be purified?

Post by perkele »

Thanks for this discussion. That is really helpful. And thanks for asking that question Ervin.
pilgrim wrote:No, past kamma cannot be purified. Its potential effects, however, can be diluted.

"Suppose that a man were to drop a salt crystal into a small amount of water in a cup. What do you think? Would the water in the cup become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink?"

"Yes, lord. Why is that? There being only a small amount of water in the cup, it would become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink."

"Now suppose that a man were to drop a salt crystal into the River Ganges. What do you think? Would the water in the River Ganges become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink?"

"No, lord. Why is that? There being a great mass of water in the River Ganges, it would not become salty because of the salt crystal or unfit to drink."

"In the same way, there is the case where a trifling evil deed done by one individual [the first] takes him to hell; and there is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by the other individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.
(AN 3.99)
[/quote]
Sam Vara wrote:As well as the sutta recommended by pilgrim, there is also the Devadaha Sutta, which you might find useful.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It tells us that
it seems that an action to be experienced in the here-&-now cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced in the future life. An action to be experienced in the future life cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced in the here-&-now... An action to be experienced cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action not to be experienced. An action not to be experienced cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced
Sam Vara, I think it is important to quote this in the proper context.
Here, the Buddha addresses disciples of the Jains. He speaks in the hypothetical ("it seems that"), answering to their motivation for practice:
"So I asked them further, 'Friend Niganthas, what do you think: Can an action to be experienced in the here-&-now be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced in the future life?'

"'No, friend.'

"'Can an action to be experienced in the future life be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced in the here-&-now?'

"'No, friend.'

"What do you think: Can an action to be experienced as pleasure be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced as pain?'

"'No, friend.'

"'Can an action to be experienced as pain be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced as pleasure?'

"'No, friend.'

"What do you think: Can an action ripe to be experienced be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action not ripe to be experienced?'

"'No, friend.'

"'Can an action not ripe to be experienced be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action ripe to be experienced?'

"'No, friend.'

"What do you think: Can an action greatly to be experienced be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action barely to be experienced?'

"'No, friend.'

"'Can an action barely to be experienced be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action greatly to be experienced?'

"'No, friend.'

"What do you think: Can an action to be experienced be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action not to be experienced?'

"'No, friend.'

"'Can an action not to be experienced be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced?'

"'No, friend.'

"'So, friends, it seems that an action to be experienced in the here-&-now cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced in the future life. An action to be experienced in the future life cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced in the here-&-now... An action to be experienced cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action not to be experienced. An action not to be experienced cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced. That being the case, the striving of the Niganthas is fruitless, their exertion is fruitless.'

"Such is the teaching of the Niganthas. And, such being the teaching of the Niganthas, ten legitimate deductions can be drawn that give grounds for censuring them. ((emphasis mine))
In the introduction Thanissaro Bhikkhu explains:
In this way, the Buddha points to one of the most distinctive features of his own teaching on kamma: that the present experience of pleasure and pain is a combined result of both past and present actions. This seemingly small addition to the notion of kamma plays an enormous role in allowing for the exercise of free will and the possibility of putting an end to suffering before the effects of all past actions have ripened. In other words, this addition is what makes Buddhist practice possible, and makes it possible for a person who has completed the practice to survive and teach it with full authority to others. For more on these points, see the articles, "Karma," "A Refuge in Skillful Action," and "Five Piles of Bricks"; see also the Introduction to The Wings to Awakening, along with the introductions to the sections on Skillfulness and Kamma & the Ending of Kamma in that book.

The second important point touched on in this sutta — how to put an end to pain and suffering — relates to the first. If the cause of present suffering were located exclusively in the past, no one could do anything in the present moment to stop that suffering; the most that could be done would be to endure the suffering while not creating any new kamma leading to future suffering. Although this was the Jain approach to practice, many people at present believe that it is the Buddhist approach as well. Meditation, according to this understanding, is the process of purifying the mind of old kamma by training it to look on with non-reactive equanimity as pain arises. The pain is the result of old kamma, the equanimity adds no new kamma, and thus over time all old kamma can be burned away. (emphasis mine)
So, according to this, yes, it is possible to purify kamma.

Then, after declaring in which ways the Niganthas are worthy of censure for their teaching, he goes on to explain how practice is fruitful:
"And how is striving fruitful, how is exertion fruitful? There is the case where a monk, when not loaded down, does not load himself down with pain, nor does he reject pleasure that accords with the Dhamma, although he is not fixated on that pleasure. He discerns that 'When I exert a [physical, verbal, or mental] fabrication against this cause of stress, then from the fabrication of exertion there is dispassion. When I look on with equanimity at that cause of stress, then from the development of equanimity there is dispassion.' So he exerts a fabrication against the cause of stress where there comes dispassion from the fabrication of exertion, and develops equanimity with regard to the cause of stress where there comes dispassion from the development of equanimity. Thus the stress coming from the cause of stress for which there is dispassion through the fabrication of exertion is exhausted & the stress resulting from the cause of stress for which there is dispassion through the development of equanimity is exhausted.

"Suppose that a man is in love with a woman, his mind ensnared with fierce desire, fierce passion. He sees her standing with another man, chatting, joking, & laughing. What do you think, monks: As he sees her standing with another man, chatting, joking, & laughing, would sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair arise in him?"

"Yes, lord. Why is that? Because he is in love with her, his mind ensnared with fierce desire, fierce passion..."

"Now suppose the thought were to occur to him, 'I am in love with this woman, my mind ensnared with fierce desire, fierce passion. When I see her standing with another man, chatting, joking, & laughing, then sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair arise within me. Why don't I abandon my desire & passion for that woman?' So he abandons his desire & passion for that woman, and afterwards sees her standing with another man, chatting, joking, & laughing. What do you think, monks: As he sees her standing with another man, chatting, joking, & laughing, would sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair arise in him?"

"No, lord. Why is that? He is dispassionate toward that woman..."

"In the same way, the monk, when not loaded down, does not load himself down with pain, nor does he reject pleasure that accords with the Dhamma, although he is not infatuated with that pleasure. He discerns that 'When I exert a [physical, verbal, or mental] fabrication against this cause of stress, then from the fabrication of exertion there is dispassion. When I look on with equanimity at that cause of stress, then from the development of equanimity there is dispassion.' So he exerts a fabrication against the cause of stress where there comes dispassion from the fabrication of exertion, and develops equanimity with regard to the cause of stress where there comes dispassion from the development of equanimity. Thus the stress coming from the cause of stress for which there is dispassion through the fabrication of exertion is exhausted & the stress resulting from the cause of stress for which there is dispassion through the development of equanimity is exhausted.

"Furthermore, the monk notices this: 'When I live according to my pleasure, unskillful mental qualities increase in me & skillful qualities decline. When I exert myself with stress & pain, though, unskillful qualities decline in me & skillful qualities increase. Why don't I exert myself with stress & pain?' So he exerts himself with stress & pain, and while he is exerting himself with stress & pain, unskillful qualities decline in him, & skillful qualities increase. Then at a later time he would no longer exert himself with stress & pain. Why is that? Because he has attained the goal for which he was exerting himself with stress & pain. That is why, at a later time, he would no longer exert himself with stress & pain.

"Suppose a fletcher were to heat & warm an arrow shaft between two flames, making it straight & pliable. Then at a later time he would no longer heat & warm the shaft between two flames, making it straight & pliable. Why is that? Because he has attained the goal for which he was heating & warming the shaft. That is why at a later time he would no longer heat & warm the shaft between two flames, making it straight & pliable.

"In the same way, the monk notices this: 'When I live according to my pleasure, unskillful mental qualities increase in me & skillful qualities decline. When I exert myself with stress & pain, though, unskillful qualities decline in me & skillful qualities increase. Why don't I exert myself with stress & pain?' So he exerts himself with stress & pain, and while he is exerting himself with stress & pain, unskillful qualities decline in him, & skillful qualities increase. Then at a later time he would no longer exert himself with stress & pain. Why is that? Because he has attained the goal for which he was exerting himself with stress & pain. That is why, at a later time, he would no longer exert himself with stress & pain.
So, according to this sutta, and in the sense as explained here, does it not seem that kamma can be purified? Namely in this sense:
Sam Vara wrote:But that we can strive and exert ourselves in another way: to generate skillful qualities and dispassion towards what makes us suffer in the present moment.
Would this not be a way in which we can say that kamma can be purified?

The question that remains to me is whether the qualifier it seems in the Buddha's answer turns out to be true or actually untrue in the face of reality.
The Buddha says:
it seems (according to what the Niganthas say) that an action to be experienced in the here-&-now cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced in the future life. An action to be experienced in the future life cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced in the here-&-now... An action to be experienced cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action not to be experienced. An action not to be experienced cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced (emphasis/remark mine)
But I get the impression that through practice as described we can accelerate the ripening of old kamma and face the consequences, boldened up through mental purification so that "an action to be experienced in the future" would be turned into "an action to be experienced here and now" etc. and burned away so to speak by our exertion and courage to face it.

I would be happy to hear your thoughts on this.

:anjali:
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Dhammanando
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Re: Can karma be purified?

Post by Dhammanando »

Thanissaro: The second important point touched on in this sutta — how to put an end to pain and suffering — relates to the first. If the cause of present suffering were located exclusively in the past, no one could do anything in the present moment to stop that suffering; the most that could be done would be to endure the suffering while not creating any new kamma leading to future suffering. Although this was the Jain approach to practice, many people at present believe that it is the Buddhist approach as well. Meditation, according to this understanding, is the process of purifying the mind of old kamma by training it to look on with non-reactive equanimity as pain arises. The pain is the result of old kamma, the equanimity adds no new kamma, and thus over time all old kamma can be burned away. (emphasis mine)

perkele: So, according to this, yes, it is possible to purify kamma.
I think you're misreading it. Ajahn Thanissaro is not endorsing this view. When he says "according to this understanding..." he means according to the Jain understanding [which is wrong]. So he's merely remarking that a lot of modern Buddhists subscribe to the very same error as the Jains.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Sam Vara
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Re: Can karma be purified?

Post by Sam Vara »

Hi perkele,

Many thanks for your post. I appreciate you taking so much time and effort over this one - it has really made me think quite deeply about this.

I think the question might ultimately come down to semantics - what "purified" means when applied to kamma. And whichever the answer, I don't think it would affect actual practice all that much.

In quoting this particular sutta, I was attempting to address the OP's question about "past kamma", and whether it can be purified. My reading of this sutta is that it cannot, but our present kamma can be purified. There is literally nothing that can be done about our past actions: what is done, is done. Our present response is to some extent within our control, however, whether or not this is a response to the result of such old kamma.

My understanding of the "it seems..." passages is that the Buddha is not pointing to the Niganthas' wrong view by saying that it is an apparent ("seeming") grasping of reality, and that the opposite of what they say is true. He is not saying that it seems to be the case that "An action to be experienced cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action not to be experienced", whereas in reality it can be. The "seems" is here a rhetorical flourish. He is saying "It looks (seems) as if you believe x, and that's just wrong".

With regard to Ajahn Thanissaro, I agree with Dhammanando. The passage about "purifying the mind of old kamma" refers to a mistaken belief. Thanissaro goes on in the next paragraph to say
In this sutta, however, the Buddha heaps ridicule on this idea
The effort is not directed towards the old kamma (as per the Niganthas' method) but towards generating wholesome kamma in the present. Which is, after all, the only reality available to us.
This might, of course, be expressed in terms of "purifying kamma", but I took the OP to mean past actions.
perkele
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Re: Can karma be purified?

Post by perkele »

Oh yes, thanks for correcting my inattentive hasty reading.

Now finally, maybe I understand something. I always had a knot about this in my head I think.


Still, I have some questions.


Both Buddhists and Jains teach: Previous kamma will ripen, painful or pleasent.

Jains say: Inactivity is the way to enlightenment. Just sit and do nothing and sit through the fruits of your kamma that make up all your experience. In the end, all kama is exhausted and you are liberated. Simple. (Equanimous death of starvation is the goal.)

Buddhists say: You can achieve liberative insight (cessation of suffering) before all your kamma is exhausted (and only after that it is actually possible to be exhausted, because you don't add anything to the heap anymore that would cause further suffering after you have eliminated its cause (ignorance)). But for that is necessary not only equanimity to everything but depending on the cause of the particular instance of suffering different kinds of exertion that would enable to eliminate it (bring about dispassion through insight into and uprooting its cause).

Okay.

But is it not possible to say that one purifies old kamma through this process (of understanding)?

Perhaps there can also be some ambiguity about the term of "purifying".
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Re: Can karma be purified?

Post by culaavuso »

perkele wrote: But I get the impression that through practice as described we can accelerate the ripening of old kamma and face the consequences, boldened up through mental purification so that "an action to be experienced in the future" would be turned into "an action to be experienced here and now" etc. and burned away so to speak by our exertion and courage to face it.
MN 86: Aṅgulimāla Sutta wrote: Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!" [3]

Note 3: This incident illustrates the kammic principle stated in AN 3.99.
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Re: Can karma be purified?

Post by culaavuso »

perkele wrote: Buddhists say: You can achieve liberative insight (cessation of suffering) before all your kamma is exhausted (and only after that it is actually possible to be exhausted, because you don't add anything to the heap anymore that would cause further suffering after you have eliminated its cause (ignorance)). But for that is necessary not only equanimity to everything but depending on the cause of the particular instance of suffering different kinds of exertion that would enable to eliminate it (bring about dispassion through insight into and uprooting its cause).
[url=http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.076.than.html]AN 3.76: Bhava Sutta[/url] (Note by Ven. Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu) wrote: Thus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture. [2]

Note 2: In this analogy, "kamma" apparently means intention and the result of intention, both past and present. This would thus cover the six sense media (SN 35.145), the first four of the aggregates (SN 22.54), and the four nutriments for consciousness (SN 12.64). As the analogy here suggests, these elements of experience create the range of possibilities for a sense of becoming. If your past and present kamma don't contain a particular possibility, a corresponding type of becoming can't be developed. The only becomings you can experience are those from within the range of possibilities provided by your kamma. Consciousness and craving locate a particular opportunity from those possibilities that, through the nourishment of craving, they develop into an actual state of becoming. A similar analogy appears in SN 22.54. For more on this topic, see The Paradox of Becoming, Chapter Two.
perkele
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Re: Can karma be purified?

Post by perkele »

MN 86: Aṅgulimāla Sutta wrote: Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!" [3]

Note 3: This incident illustrates the kammic principle stated in AN 3.99.
[/quote]

Thanks, culaavuso. That's what I was thinking of.

That does seem to point to an (quite an extreme) instance of "an action to be experienced in the future" transformed into "an action to be experienced in the here and now", doesn't it?

Okay, from this example we could also see that the term "purify" (applied to one's already performed actions) would be a bit misplaced. Angulimala has to suffer a lot. But the consequences of his actions are drastically mitigated. And at the same time he is experiencing the bliss of a purified mind. (Yes, here the term "purify" makes sense. We can purify our minds.)

But the thing is, to purify our minds it's not good to just sit around and do nothing and hope for it all to pass by itself. But to get up and do something and face whatever we have to face with a positive attitude.
culaavuso wrote:
perkele wrote: But I get the impression that through practice as described we can accelerate the ripening of old kamma and face the consequences, boldened up through mental purification so that "an action to be experienced in the future" would be turned into "an action to be experienced here and now" etc. and burned away so to speak by our exertion and courage to face it.
Ervin
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Re: Can karma be purified?

Post by Ervin »

So then, I suppose if you have good karma coming your way your present bad actions won't effect it, which explains how some active criminals enjoy pleasures.

Thanks
perkele
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Re: Can karma be purified?

Post by perkele »

Yes.
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Re: Can karma be purified?

Post by lakshmipriya »

Its karma, not kama. Kama is desire. If some karma may be diluted than yes, it can be purified. Right?
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Re: Can karma be purified?

Post by Dhammanando »

lakshmipriya wrote:Its karma, not kama. Kama is desire. If some karma may be diluted than yes, it can be purified. Right?
Welcome to Dhammawheel. :smile:

In the Pali language karma is in fact spelled kamma. Only one poster has misspelled it 'kama', which is probably just a typo since he's spelled it right in the rest of his post..
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
yxwyi
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Re: Can karma be purified?

Post by yxwyi »

I my opinion,karma is the force of our hearts.

If the our hearts are full of anger、anxiouty、jealous etc ,then we live in a state which called hell.The pain of heart is more worse than the pain from the outside "hell".

Luckly,the force of our heart can be changed,because of impermanence,like the sludge can be transformed into lotus,we can change our negative emotions into true love and understanding,if we live in peace and true love,everywhere can be paradise which the Mahayana called pure land.
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