Levels of accomplishment?

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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby kc2dpt » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:07 pm

If the eliminated fetters were marked in each column, one might make the mistake of thinking the same fetter has to be eliminated over and over again, up to 4 times. :shrug: So there's room for confusion no matter how you do it. The best thing to do is what you did: ask. :)
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:50 pm

Hi Peter

Peter wrote:If the eliminated fetters were marked in each column, one might make the mistake of thinking the same fetter has to be eliminated over and over again, up to 4 times. :shrug: So there's room for confusion no matter how you do it. The best thing to do is what you did: ask. :)


or have an explanation on the chart? sometimes it is easier to explain than assume prior knowledge on the matter.
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:52 am

One cannot guess ahead of time all the ways someone will be confused.
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:18 am

Peter wrote:One cannot guess ahead of time all the ways someone will be confused.


suppose that is why an explanatory note is common practice if not on the chart within the text which links to it or before it.
A common example would be

Chart 3 (page 154) shows which factors are removed at each level, and unique to that level

but back to the topic may be best
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:01 pm

Isnt there another way of talking of attainment as well: dhamma follower, faith follower etc?
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby Dhammanando » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:49 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Isnt there another way of talking of attainment as well: dhamma follower, faith follower etc?


Yes, there are quite a few classifying schemes. The Puggalapaññatti of the Abhidhamma Pitaka (translated by B.C. Law as Designation of Human Types) is a useful source for these, most of them taken from the Anguttara Nikaya.

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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby Element » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:57 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Isnt there another way of talking of attainment as well: dhamma follower, faith follower etc?

From the Alagaddupama Sutta.
42. "Monks, this Teaching so well proclaimed by me, is plain, open, explicit, free of patchwork. In this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork; for those who are arahants, free of taints, who have accomplished and completed their task, have laid down the burden, achieved their aim, severed the fetters binding to existence, who are liberated by full knowledge, there is no (future) round of existence that can be ascribed to them.

43. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned the five lower fetters will all be reborn spontaneously (in the Pure Abodes) and there they will pass away finally, no more returning from that world.

44. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters and have reduced greed, hatred and delusion, are all once-returners, and, returning only once to this world, will then make an end of suffering.

45. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters, are all stream-enterers, no more liable to downfall, assured, and headed for full Enlightenment.

46. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit, and free of patchwork, those monks who are Dhamma followers, mature in faith, are all headed for full Enlightenment.

47. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those who are faith followers, who simply have faith in me, simply love for me, are all destined for heaven."

48. This said the Blessed One. Satisfied, the monks rejoiced in the words of the Blessed One.
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Postby Individual » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:30 pm

Element wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Isnt there another way of talking of attainment as well: dhamma follower, faith follower etc?

From the Alagaddupama Sutta.
42. "Monks, this Teaching so well proclaimed by me, is plain, open, explicit, free of patchwork. In this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork; for those who are arahants, free of taints, who have accomplished and completed their task, have laid down the burden, achieved their aim, severed the fetters binding to existence, who are liberated by full knowledge, there is no (future) round of existence that can be ascribed to them.

43. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned the five lower fetters will all be reborn spontaneously (in the Pure Abodes) and there they will pass away finally, no more returning from that world.

44. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters and have reduced greed, hatred and delusion, are all once-returners, and, returning only once to this world, will then make an end of suffering.

45. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters, are all stream-enterers, no more liable to downfall, assured, and headed for full Enlightenment.

46. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit, and free of patchwork, those monks who are Dhamma followers, mature in faith, are all headed for full Enlightenment.

47. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those who are faith followers, who simply have faith in me, simply love for me, are all destined for heaven."

48. This said the Blessed One. Satisfied, the monks rejoiced in the words of the Blessed One.

Very interesting!

I notice, by the way, that "Dhamma followers," are themselves "mature in faith." So, it's not that Dhamma followers lack faith, but that their faith is well-developed.
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