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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:45 pm
by badscooter
Dmytro wrote:
Billymac29 wrote:
The Visuddhimagga-Mahatika 229 straightforwardly connects the "thirasaññā", with the sati being established on nimitta (representation). ( Nimittaṃ ṭhapetabbanti satiyā tattha tattha sukhappavattanatthaṃ thiratarasañjānanaṃ pavattetabbaṃ. Thirasaññāpadaṭṭhānā hi sati. ) So this word has nothing to do with "simple awareness of the object".
what word??? this has nothing to do with what I posted.
"thirasaññā" from:
According to the Abhidhamma, sati arises based on fortified recognition (thīra-saññā). Whereas ordinary recognition (saññā) is not enough to keep the mind in objective awareness, once we fortify or reaffirm this recognition, not letting the mind move beyond simple awareness of the object for what it is, our minds will penetrate the nature of the object to the core, dispelling all doubt as to its essential nature as something worth clinging to or not.
http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/less ... -practice/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In relation with Anapanasati, the Commentary notes:

Pakatiassāsapakatipassāse nissāya uppannanimittampi assāsapassāsāti nāmaṃ labhati. Upaṭṭhānaṃ satīti taṃ ārammaṇaṃ upecca tiṭṭhatīti sati upaṭṭhānaṃ nāma.

'Sati upaṭṭhāna' means that 'sati', having approached, stays on that basis of concentration (ārammaṇa) (i.e. the perceptual image (nimitta) which has arisen due to natural in-and-out-breath).

Patisambhidamagga-Atthakatha 2.509

Establishment of 'sati' on the 'nimitta' of concentration is related to the corresponding stabilization of recognition (saññā).

A picture to illustrate the red kasina practice, the change of recognition (saññā) due to remembrance of red colour representation (nimitta):
thats great but i posted this
I agree with Tilt,
from one of my teachers on the word "patisatimatta";
"The word 'patisatimatta' appears in the satipatthana sutta... 'pati' means specific and 'matta' means mere. "


and we know "mere" means "bare" in english.. So we see "sati" starting to be used within bare awareness ... here it is the reminding oneself of the bare specifics of experience.

with metta
i never mentioned thirasaññā


with metta

:)

Re: Pali Term: Sati

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:38 pm
by Assaji
Billymac29 wrote:i never mentioned thirasaññā
I know this. I did not address you nor quoted you in the post:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p226497" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta, Dmytro

Re: Pali Term: Sati

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:38 am
by danieLion
Dmytro et al,
Your view of sati has many of the characteristics of what Wikipedia* calls the Etymological Fallacy, "...a genetic fallacy** that holds, erroneously, that the present-day meaning of a word or phrase should necessarily be similar to its historical meaning."

*If you want to debate the validity of Wikipedia as a valid source of knoweldge please start a new topic in the lounge or another appropriate forum.

**"A.k.a. fallacy of origins, fallacy of virtue, is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone's origin rather than its current meaning or context."

Re: Pali Term: Sati

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:56 am
by pulga
danieLion wrote:... erroneously, that the present-day meaning of a word or phrase should necessarily be similar to its historical meaning."
I find it somewhat bemusing that the Pali word viveka which meant "seclusion" in the Buddha's day has come to mean "leisure time" in present day Sinhala.

Re: Pali Term: Sati

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:04 pm
by Assaji
From Monier-Williams dictionary:

smṛti
smṛ́ti f. remembrance , reminiscence , thinking of or upon (loc. or comp.) , calling to mind (smṛtim api te na yānti , " they are not even thought of ") , memory TA1r. ChUp. MBh. &c

http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/monier/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Pali Term: Sati

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:50 pm
by tiltbillings
Dmytro wrote:From Monier-Williams dictionary:

smṛti
smṛ́ti f. remembrance , reminiscence , thinking of or upon (loc. or comp.) , calling to mind (smṛtim api te na yānti , " they are not even thought of ") , memory TA1r. ChUp. MBh. &c

http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/monier/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Again, there are dictionary meanings and there is how meanings are changed by usage.

Re: Pali Term: Sati

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:54 pm
by retrofuturist
Greetings,
Dmytro wrote:From Monier-Williams dictionary:

smṛti
smṛ́ti f. remembrance , reminiscence , thinking of or upon (loc. or comp.) , calling to mind (smṛtim api te na yānti , " they are not even thought of ") , memory TA1r. ChUp. MBh. &c

http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/monier/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That sounds samma.

Thanks.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Pali Term: Sati

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:23 pm
by tiltbillings
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Dmytro wrote:From Monier-Williams dictionary:

smṛti
smṛ́ti f. remembrance , reminiscence , thinking of or upon (loc. or comp.) , calling to mind (smṛtim api te na yānti , " they are not even thought of ") , memory TA1r. ChUp. MBh. &c

http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/monier/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That sounds samma.
So, do we take the Hindu usages of the Pali equivalents of smṛ́ti, dharma, karma, buddhi, dhyana, dhatu, citta, anatman, and so many others as meaning the same as they are used in the Pali?

Re: Pali Term: Sati

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:32 pm
by retrofuturist
Greetings Tilt,

It's nowhere near that simple...

Sanskrit doesn't equal Hindu.

A lot of Buddhist thought has been recorded in sanskrit.

What is recorded in sanskrit, may be useful in finding a pre-commentarial or pre-Sri Lankanised understanding of key Pali terms.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Pali Term: Sati

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:20 am
by tiltbillings
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

It's nowhere near that simple...

Sanskrit doesn't equal Hindu.

A lot of Buddhist thought has been recorded in sanskrit.

What is recorded in sanskrit, may be useful in finding a pre-commentarial or pre-Sri Lankanised understanding of key Pali terms.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Simply, the point is when we look at, in differing schools of thought, the applied usages of shared cognate terminology between two extremely closely related languages, such as the Sanskrit dharma and the Pali dhamma, we see that the idea that it is usage that determines meaning is quite clear.

Re: Pali Term: Sati

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:30 am
by Polar Bear
I'm listening to an interesting talk right now by John Peacock called Mindfulness and the Brahma Viharas and his translation of sati is "present moment recollection." I find it a rather interesting translation as it bridges the gap that keeps popping up here between the role of memory in sati and the role of present moment awareness. If you're interested in hearing Peacock's actual words go to this page and click on the first talk. (http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/91/?s ... ma+viharas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) If you go exactly 11 minutes into the talk and listen from there then you'll hear a better explanation of what he means than what I wrote here. Seriously though, anyone interested in the term sati for practical purposes as well as out of plain curiosity should check out what he has to say.

:namaste:

Re: Pali Term: Sati

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:53 am
by Assaji
My friend pointed out that the confusion of 'sato' and 'sampajano' is already present in the Childer's dictionary:

"SATO (p.p.p. sarati), Recollecting, mindful, attentive, thoughtful, conscious. Sadā sato, ever mindful of, or constantly meditating on (the impurity of the body, Dh. 63, see Sati). Generally in the phrase Sato sampajāno, “thoughtful and conscious” (Dh. 52; B. Lot. 342), the words are very nearly synonymous, e.g. sampajānamusāvādo, a conscious or intentional falsehood, with asatiyā, uncosciously, unintentionally; corresponding to this phrase we have the compound satisampajaññaṃ, “active thought and consciousness” (Alw. I. 78)."

Evidently here's an old error of confusing the words used together.

I have touched upon the usage of 'sato' in the post:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 99#p180783" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now as for the word 'asatiyā':

So bhikkhu bhikkhūhi āpattiyā codiyamāno ‘na sarāmī’ti asatiyā nibbeṭheti.

... he exonerates himself by reason of lack of memory, saying: 'I don't remember [commiting such an offence].'

AN 8.14

Re: Pali Term: Sati

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:04 pm
by badscooter
more on patisatimatta from Mindfulness Meditation Made Easy from Venerable Dhammasami
To quote in Pali from the Discourse, "Sati paccu patthita hoti yavadeva nanamatthaya patisatimatthaya" meaning "in order to reflect, we have to establish mindfulness and in order to understand things clearly as they are we have to establish mindfulness, which is bare attention."

Re: Pali Term: Sati

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:45 am
by Aloka
.

In the section 'Right Practice.. Steady Practice' from "Food for the Heart", Ajahn Chah describes sati as recollection.
Then I realized..."Oh, that's not right, it can't be right because it's impossible to do. Standing, walking, sitting, reclining... make them all consistent. To make the postures consistent the way they explain it in the books is impossible."

But it is possible to do this: The mind... just consider the mind. To have sati, recollection, sampajañña, self awareness and pañña, all-round wisdom... this you can do. This is something that's really worth practicing. This means that while standing we have sati, while walking we have sati, while sitting we have sati, and while reclining we have sati, -- consistently. This is possible. We put awareness into our standing, walking, sitting, lying down -- into all postures.

When the mind has been trained like this it will constantly recollect Buddho, Buddho, Buddho... which is knowing. Knowing what? Knowing what is right and what is wrong at all times. Yes, this is possible. This is getting down to the real practice. That is, whether standing, walking, sitting or lying down there is continuous sati.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... .htm#flood
.

Re: Pali Term: Sati

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:42 am
by Assaji
From Latukikopama sutta:

‘‘Idha panudāyi, ekacco puggalo upadhipahānāya paṭipanno hoti upadhipaṭinissaggāya. Tamenaṃ upadhipahānāya paṭipannaṃ upadhipaṭinissaggāya kadāci karahaci satisammosā upadhipaṭisaṃyuttā sarasaṅkappā samudācaranti; dandho, udāyi, satuppādo. Atha kho naṃ khippameva pajahati, vinodeti, byantīkaroti, anabhāvaṃ gameti. Seyyathāpi, udāyi, puriso divasaṃsantatte ayokaṭāhe dve vā tīṇi vā udakaphusitāni nipāteyya; dandho, udāyi, udakaphusitānaṃ nipāto. Atha kho naṃ khippameva parikkhayaṃ pariyādānaṃ gaccheyya. Evameva kho, udāyi, idhekacco puggalo upadhipahānāya paṭipanno hoti upadhipaṭinissaggāya. Tamenaṃ upadhipahānāya paṭipannaṃ upadhipaṭinissaggāya kadāci karahaci satisammosā upadhipaṭisaṃyuttā sarasaṅkappā samudācaranti; dandho, udāyi, satuppādo. Atha kho naṃ khippameva pajahati, vinodeti, byantīkaroti, anabhāvaṃ gameti. Imampi kho ahaṃ, udāyi, puggalaṃ ‘saṃyutto’ti vadāmi no ‘visaṃyutto’. Taṃ kissa hetu? Indriyavemattatā hi me, udāyi, imasmiṃ puggale viditā.

"Then there is the case where a certain person is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, then — from time to time, owing to lapses in mindfulness — he is assailed by memories & resolves associated with acquisitions. Slow is the arising of his mindfulness, but then he quickly abandons [those memories & resolves], destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. Just as when two or three drops of water fall onto an iron pan heated all day: Slow is the falling of the drops of water, but they quickly vanish & disappear. In the same way, there is the case where a certain person is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, then — from time to time, owing to lapses in mindfulness — he is assailed by memories & resolves associated with acquisitions. Slow is the arising of his mindfulness, but then he quickly abandons [those memories & resolves], destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. I tell you, Udayin, that this sort of person is fettered, not unfettered. Why is that? Because I have known the diversity of faculties with regard to this type of person.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From Kayagatasati sutta:

154. ‘‘Kathaṃ bhāvitā ca, bhikkhave, kāyagatāsati kathaṃ bahulīkatā mahapphalā hoti mahānisaṃsā? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu araññagato vā rukkhamūlagato vā suññāgāragato vā nisīdati pallaṅkaṃ ābhujitvā ujuṃ kāyaṃ paṇidhāya parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā. So satova assasati satova passasati; dīghaṃ vā assasanto ‘dīghaṃ assasāmī’ti pajānāti, dīghaṃ vā passasanto ‘dīghaṃ passasāmī’ti pajānāti; rassaṃ vā assasanto ‘rassaṃ assasāmī’ti pajānāti, rassaṃ vā passasanto ‘rassaṃ passasāmī’ti pajānāti; ‘sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati; ‘passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati. Tassa evaṃ appamattassa ātāpino pahitattassa viharato ye gehasitā sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti. Tesaṃ pahānā ajjhattameva cittaṃ santiṭṭhati sannisīdati ekodi hoti samādhiyati. Evaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāyagatāsatiṃ bhāveti.

"Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Parihānadhammasuttaṃ (SN 35.96)

‘‘Parihānadhammañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi aparihānadhammañca cha ca abhibhāyatanāni. Taṃ suṇātha. Kathañca, bhikkhave, parihānadhammo hoti? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno cakkhunā rūpaṃ disvā uppajjanti pāpakā akusalā sarasaṅkappā saṃyojaniyā. Tañce bhikkhu adhivāseti nappajahati na vinodeti na byantīkaroti na anabhāvaṃ gameti, veditabbametaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhunā – ‘parihāyāmi kusalehi dhammehi’. Parihānañhetaṃ vuttaṃ bhagavatāti…pe….

"Bhikkhus, I will teach you about one who is subject to decline, about one who is not subject to decline, and about the six mastered bases. Listen to that...
"And how, bhikkus, is one subject to decline? Here, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu has seen a form with the eye, there arise in him evil unwholesome states, memories and intentions connected with the fetters. If the bhikkhu tolerates them and does not abandon them, dispel them, put an end to them, and obliterate them, he should understand this thus: 'I am declining away from wholesome states. For this has been called decline by the Blessed One.'

7. Dukkhadhammasuttaṃ

‘‘Tassa ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno evaṃ carato evaṃ viharato kadāci karahaci satisammosā uppajjanti, pāpakā akusalā sarasaṅkappā saṃyojaniyā, dandho, bhikkhave, satuppādo. Atha kho naṃ khippameva pajahati vinodeti byantīkaroti anabhāvaṃ gameti.

‘‘Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, puriso divasaṃsantatte ayokaṭāhe dve vā tīṇi vā udakaphusitāni nipāteyya. Dandho, bhikkhave, udakaphusitānaṃ nipāto, atha kho naṃ khippameva parikkhayaṃ pariyādānaṃ gaccheyya. Evameva kho, bhikkhave, tassa ce bhikkhuno evaṃ carato, evaṃ viharato kadāci karahaci satisammosā uppajjanti pāpakā akusalā sarasaṅkappā saṃyojaniyā, dandho, bhikkhave, satuppādo. Atha kho naṃ khippameva pajahati vinodeti byantīkaroti anabhāvaṃ gameti.

"When, monks, a monk lives and practices like this, it occasionally happens that, through a lapse of mindfulness, evil and unskilled states arise, memories and thoughts pertaining to the fetters. His mindfulness is aroused only slowly, but then he soon abandons that state, drives it out, abolishes it, puts an end to it. Just as if, monks, a man were to let fall two or three drops of water into an iron pot that had been heated all day, those few drops would soon be wiped out and vanish — in the same way it occasionally happens to a monk living and practicing like this... but he soon puts an end to it.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;