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A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby Dmytro » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:58 pm

And now with Yogasutra:

vitarka-vicharanandasmitanugamat sanprajnatah

Cognitive contemplation is accompanied by reasoning, deliberation, bliss and the awareness of pure being (asmita). (17)

...

tatra shabdartha-jnana-vikalpaih sankirna savitarka

Whenever the construction of words and meanings is confused and uncertain, the mind wavers in a polemical and chaotic state (sankirna savitarka). (42)

smriti-parishuddhau svarupa-shunyevartha-matra-nirbhasa nirvitarka

When the memory is purified, when the mind is void of its own form, it is luminous with true knowledge of its sole object, attaining to an unclouded state (nirvitarka). (43)

etayaiva savichara nirvichara cha sukshma-vishaya vyakhyata

Also, by this process, the deliberative and non-deliberative states concerning subtle elements (sukshma-vishaya) are explained. (44)

sukshma-vishayatvam chalinga-paryavasanam

And the subtle elements extend up to the noumenal, primordial and undifferentiated (alinga). (45)

ta eva sabijah samadhih

They are only the basis of meditation with its seed. (46)

vichara-vaisharadye ‘dhyatma-prasadah

On attaining the utmost purity of the non-deliberative state, there is the dawning of spiritual light, the gracious peace and luminosity of the supreme Self. (47)

...

vitarka badhane pratipaksha bhavanam

When the mind is oppressed by perverse thoughts, it must summon and sustain their opposites. (84)

vitarka himsadayah krita-karitanumodita lobha-krodha-moha-purvaka mridu-madhyadhimatra duhkhajnananantaphala iti pratipaksha-bhavanam

Perverse thoughts of a violent and destructive nature, whether enacted, abetted or endorsed, whether induced by avarice, anger or delusion, whether mild, moderately present or intensely indulged, result in endless misery and folly; consequently, their opposites must be nurtured and nourished. (85)

http://www.primordialsalt.com/2016/11/12/yoga-sutras/


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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby Dmytro » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:07 pm



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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby Buddha Vacana » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:21 pm

Thanks for this very wide ranging research!

It becomes rapidly mind boggling though as each tradition has its very idiosyncratic view on meditation experience.

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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby CecilN » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:22 pm

Last edited by CecilN on Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:35 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby CecilN » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:24 pm


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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby Buddha Vacana » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:32 pm

Sankappa and vitakka are often interchangeable. For example when they are both broken down into kama-vitakka/sankappa, nekkhamma-vitakka/sankappa, (a)byapada-vitakka/sankappa, (a)vihimsa-vitakka/sankappa, which is the case at MN 78.

When one makes an assumption that sankappa has a completely different meaning, it needs to be duly supported by independent observations, otherwise Occam's razor takes a toll.

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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby CecilN » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:36 pm


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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby Buddha Vacana » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:12 pm


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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby Dmytro » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:29 am

Hi CecilN,

Australian Brahmic Buddhism and Brahmavamso's approach have already been discussed in detail in the threads:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7521
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7360

Regards


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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby Dmytro » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:38 am



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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby CecilN » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:27 am


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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby Zom » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:38 pm


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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby Buddha Vacana » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:58 pm


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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby frank k » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:03 pm

http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings

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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby Dmytro » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:10 pm



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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby frank k » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:20 pm

http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings

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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby frank k » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:22 pm

http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings

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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby frank k » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:33 pm

Someone on the thread posted a few times, hilariously, that "Sujato's article on vitakka and vicara is still undefeated!"

This reminds me of what Michael Jordan said about himself. Jordan is considered by many basketball experts/historians to be the greatest basketball player of all time, because he had no weakness in his complete game. I'm paraphrasing from memory, but this is what Jordan said on why he thinks he's the greatest: "Because I can score on my guy any time I want, he can't stop me from scoring. And I can shut him down and keep him from scoring."

Similarly, if you're going to be the MIchael Jordan of the V&V argument, you need to show EBT passage evidence of why your interpretation is correct, and you need to show EBT evidence on why the other guy's interpretation is incorrect. If you just cherry pick and score a few empty points, but can't stop the onslaught of points from the opponent, you won't be "undefeated" for long.
http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings

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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby Dmytro » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:31 am



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Re: A. Sujato's Why Vitakka Doesn't Mean 'Thinking' in Jhana

Postby Buddha Vacana » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:03 am



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