devamanussaṃ - royalty and common people?
devamanussaṃ - royalty and common people?
I have noticed that in many translations of the tevijja sutta, the translators have decided to translate devamanussaṃ as "royalty and common people" or "princes and men" ect, in the section beginning the gradual training. Since "teacher of gods and men" is well known as a translation of Satthā devamanussānaṁ, I wonder why this is the case?
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26
Iti 26
Re: devamanussaṃ - royalty and common people?
Hi Coyote,
Can you give an example? I can't find that phrasing in the common sources, such at the ones linked here: http://suttacentral.net/dn13.
Mike
Can you give an example? I can't find that phrasing in the common sources, such at the ones linked here: http://suttacentral.net/dn13.
Mike
Re: devamanussaṃ - royalty and common people?
I should have mentioned that it is translated as such in the succeeding passage, not in the description of the qualities of the Buddha.
It makes sense within the context, as the passage has already mentioned devas, but I wondered why it could not refer to "princes and peoples" in the qualities of the Buddha pericope.He, by himself, thoroughly understands, and sees, as it were, face to face this universe—including the worlds above with the gods, the Māras, and the Brahmās; and the world below with its Samaṇas and Brahmans, its princes and peoples—and he then makes his knowledge known to others.
So imaṃ lokaṃ sadevakaṃ samārakaṃ sabrahmakaṃ sassamaṇabrāhmaṇiṃ pajaṃ sadevamanussaṃ sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā pavedeti.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26
Iti 26
- Dhammanando
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Re: devamanussaṃ - royalty and common people?
In satthā devamanussānaṁ the devas are deities and the manussas are humans.
In the phrase imaṃ lokaṃ sadevakaṃ samārakaṃ sabrahmakaṃ sassamaṇabrāhmaṇiṃ pajaṃ sadevamanussaṃ the devas in sadevakaṃ are the deities residing in the first five of the six sense-sphere heavens, while samārakaṃ refers to the devas in the sixth heaven who have Māra as their overlord.
As for the compound word sadevamanussaṃ, this is synonymous with ‘manyfolk’ (bahujana). The devas in this term are royalty and the manussas are commoners.
Some translators like to take the meaning of ‘deva’ in sadevamanussaṃ as applicable also in satthā devamanussānaṁ. One can understand why someone of secular Buddhist bent (who disbelieves in devas) would prefer this rendering, but oddly enough I've occasionally encountered it even from orthodox Buddhists.
In the phrase imaṃ lokaṃ sadevakaṃ samārakaṃ sabrahmakaṃ sassamaṇabrāhmaṇiṃ pajaṃ sadevamanussaṃ the devas in sadevakaṃ are the deities residing in the first five of the six sense-sphere heavens, while samārakaṃ refers to the devas in the sixth heaven who have Māra as their overlord.
As for the compound word sadevamanussaṃ, this is synonymous with ‘manyfolk’ (bahujana). The devas in this term are royalty and the manussas are commoners.
Some translators like to take the meaning of ‘deva’ in sadevamanussaṃ as applicable also in satthā devamanussānaṁ. One can understand why someone of secular Buddhist bent (who disbelieves in devas) would prefer this rendering, but oddly enough I've occasionally encountered it even from orthodox Buddhists.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: devamanussaṃ - royalty and common people?
It seems clear that in the context of the tevijja sutta (and others) that devamanussaṃ means "royalty and common folk", given that devas have already been mentioned. pajaṃ also gives a sense of "this generation (of mankind), with it's royalty and common folk".Dhammanando wrote: Some translators like to take the meaning of ‘deva’ in sadevamanussaṃ as applicable also in satthā devamanussānaṁ. One can understand why someone of secular Buddhist bent (who disbelieves in devas) would prefer this rendering, but oddly enough I've occasionally encountered it even from orthodox Buddhists.
But, I wonder, since this is not the case in the Buddhaguṇa passage, if there is any reason to assume deva means "deva", as opposed to "royalty", other than, presumably, that the commentary takes it to mean that?
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26
Iti 26
- Dhammanando
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Re: devamanussaṃ - royalty and common people?
Yes. Firstly, because the Buddha did in fact spend an enormous amount of time instructing devas: one of the three watches of every night was devoted to just this. He only very occasionally taught royalty. Secondly because these are qualities that the yogāvacara brings to mind when he is practising buddhānussati; in such a context taking devas as 'royalty' would be rather lacking in numinosity.Coyote wrote:But, I wonder, since this is not the case in the Buddhaguṇa passage, if there is any reason to assume deva means "deva", as opposed to "royalty", other than, presumably, that the commentary takes it to mean that?
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: devamanussaṃ - royalty and common people?
Thanks,Coyote wrote:I should have mentioned that it is translated as such in the succeeding passage, not in the description of the qualities of the Buddha.
It makes sense within the context, as the passage has already mentioned devas, but I wondered why it could not refer to "princes and peoples" in the qualities of the Buddha pericope.He, by himself, thoroughly understands, and sees, as it were, face to face this universe—including the worlds above with the gods, the Māras, and the Brahmās; and the world below with its Samaṇas and Brahmans, its princes and peoples—and he then makes his knowledge known to others.
So imaṃ lokaṃ sadevakaṃ samārakaṃ sabrahmakaṃ sassamaṇabrāhmaṇiṃ pajaṃ sadevamanussaṃ sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā pavedeti.
Just to be clear of the context, here is the paragraph:
‘Then the Blessed One spake, and said: ‘Know, Vāseṭṭha, that (from time to time) a Tathāgata is born into the world, an Arahat, a fully awakened one, abounding in wisdom and goodness, happy, with knowledge of the worlds, unsurpassed as a guide to mortals willing to be led, a teacher of gods and men, a Blessed One, a Buddha. He, by himself, thoroughly understands, and sees, as it were, face to face this universe—including the worlds above with the gods, the Māras, and the Brahmās; and the world below with its Samaṇas and Brahmans, its princes and peoples—and he then makes his knowledge known to others. The truth doth he proclaim both in the letter and in the spirit, lovely in its origin, lovely in its progress, lovely in its consummation: the higher life doth he make known, in all its purity and in all its perfectness.
http://suttacentral.net/en/dn13
Re: devamanussaṃ - royalty and common people?
I could add that this common sutta passage appear in the praise for the Buddha section of the morning and evening chants. See, for example: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/dhammayut/
Mike
Mike
Re: devamanussaṃ - royalty and common people?
I agree, also in the sense that it is important to remember that the Buddha is a guide to the whole world, which includes devas, rather than being presented as an avatar or prophet of the divine.Dhammanando wrote:]
Yes. Firstly, because the Buddha did in fact spend an enormous amount of time instructing devas: one of the three watches of every night was devoted to just this. He only very occasionally taught royalty. Secondly because these are qualities that the yogāvacara brings to mind when he is practising buddhānussati; in such a context taking devas as 'royalty' would be rather lacking in numinosity.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26
Iti 26
Re: devamanussaṃ - royalty and common people?
Dear Bhante,
That is really interesting. I didn't know that the Buddha taught devas every night. Could you point me to some sutta references where this is mentioned? Off hand I don't recall running into it in MN, SN, AN, which are the ones I read the most. Most of the descriptions of deva encounters seem to be the first two samyuttas of SN.
That is really interesting. I didn't know that the Buddha taught devas every night. Could you point me to some sutta references where this is mentioned? Off hand I don't recall running into it in MN, SN, AN, which are the ones I read the most. Most of the descriptions of deva encounters seem to be the first two samyuttas of SN.
Dhammanando wrote: Yes. Firstly, because the Buddha did in fact spend an enormous amount of time instructing devas: one of the three watches of every night was devoted to just this. He only very occasionally taught royalty. Secondly because these are qualities that the yogāvacara brings to mind when he is practising buddhānussati; in such a context taking devas as 'royalty' would be rather lacking in numinosity.
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Re: devamanussaṃ - royalty and common people?
Hi Frank,frank k wrote:Could you point me to some sutta references where this is mentioned? Off hand I don't recall running into it in MN, SN, AN, which are the ones I read the most. Most of the descriptions of deva encounters seem to be the first two samyuttas of SN.
I thought that the description of the Buddha's daily duties was from the Dīgha Nikāya, but it turns out to be the Dīgha Atthakathā to the Brahmajāla Sutta (DA.i. 45ff.), though repeated also in the Saṃyutta and Aṅguttara Atthakathās.
Bhikkhu Bodhi's prose translation:
F.L. Woodward's verse translation:
- Ah! When the Lord of the World went forth to beg,
The gentle winds made smooth the ways before Him,
The clouds poured down their waters on the dust
And from the sun’s hot rays protected Him.
The breezes wafted flowers to His path,
Raised were the ruts and hollows of the road,
Smoothed the rough places, and where’er the Lord
Trod, even was the ground and soft; thereon
Sprang lotus-flowers to receive His feet.
No sooner had He reached the city-gates
Than all the six-rayed brilliance of His form
Raced here and there o’er palaces and shrines
And decked them as with yellow sheen of gold
Or with a painter’s colours. Then the beasts,
Birds, elephants and horses, one and all,
Gave forth melodious sounds, and all the folk
Crashed loud the drums; lutes twanged and instruments
Of divers sounds; tinkled the women’s jewels
And by these tokens did the people know
‘The Blessed One has entered now for alms.’
So donning their best robes and finery
And taking perfumes, flowers and offerings
They issued from their houses to the street,
And worshipping the Blessed One therewith
Some said ‘Lord! Give us ten monks for to feed.’
And some, ‘Give twenty,’ some, ‘Lord Give a hundred!’
And then they took His bowl, prepared a seat,
And eagerly their reverence displayed
By placing choicest food within the bowl.
Now when the meal was done, the Blessed Lord
With nice discrimination of their minds
And dispositions, taught each one the Doctrine.
Thus, some were ’stablished in the Refuges,
Some in the Precepts Five, some reached the Stream,
While others would attain the Second Path,
And some the Path of No-Return, and some
Became established in the Highest Fruit,
Were Arahants and left the world. Thus showing
Such kindness to the folk the Lord would rise
And, to His dwelling-place would wend His way.
And there when He arrived He sat Him down
On a fair Buddha-mat they spread for Him,
And waited till the monks their meal had eaten.
This done, the body-servant told the Lord,
And to the scented chamber He retired.
Such were the duties of the morning meal.
These duties done, in the scented chamber sitting,
On a seat made ready, He would wash His feet.
Then, standing on the jewelled stairs that led
Unto the scented chamber, He would teach
The gathering of monks and thus would say
‘O monks. Apply yourselves with diligence!’
For rarely comes a Buddha in the world,
And rarely beings come to birth as men
Rare the propitious moment and the chance
To leave the world and hear the Doctrine true!’
Thereat some one would ask the Blessed One
For meditation-lessons, which He gave
Fit for each man’s peculiar bent of mind.
Then all would do obeisance and depart
To places where they spent the night or day
Some to the forest, some to the foot of trees,
Some to the hills, some to the heavens where rule
The Four Great Kings, or Vasivattī’s heaven.
Then going to His room, the Blessed One
Would lay Him down and rest there for a while,
Mindful and conscious, on His right side lying,
Like a lion; till, His body now refreshed,
He rose and gazed forth over all the world.
Then came the folk of village or of town
Near which He might be staying, they who gave
The morning meal, garbed in their best, and brought
Their offerings of flowers and scents. The Lord,
His audience thus assembled, would approach
In such miraculous fashion as was fit;
And, sitting in the lecture-hall prepared
On the fair Buddha-mat they spread for Him,
He taught the Doctrine fit for time and season,
And seasonably bade the people go.
Then all would do obeisance and depart
Such were the duties of the afternoon.
These things all done, He left the Buddha-seat,
Entering the bath-house, if He wished to bathe
And cool His limbs with water there prepared
By His body-servant, who fetched the Buddha-seat
And spread it in the scented room. The Lord,
Donning His double tunic orange-hued
And binding on His girdle, threw His robe
Over the right shoulder and thither went and sat
And stayed retired, in meditation plunged.
Then came the monks from this side and from that
And waited on the Blessed One. Some asked
The solving of their doubts, and some would beg,
For meditation-lessons, others a sermon.
Thus answering, teaching, preaching, would the Lord
Spend the first night-watch, granting their desires.
Such were the duties of the first night-watch.
When the duties of the first night-watch were done,
The monks would do obeisance and depart.
Then came the Gods of the ten thousand worlds,
Seizing the chance of questioning the Lord,
Were it but single words of letters four.
He, answering those questions, passed the night.
Such were the duties of the middle watch.
Into three parts the last watch He divided
And forasmuch as, since the morning sitting,
His body would be tired, He spent one part
In pacing up and down to ease His limbs.
Then going to the scented room the Lord
Would lay Him down and rest there for a while,
Mindful and conscious, on His right side lying,
Like a lion. But in the third He rose and sat,
Gazing with Buddha-eye o’er all the world,
To see if any man, by giving alms,
Keeping the Precepts, or by deeds of worth,
Under some former Buddha took the vow
Himself to be a Saviour of the world.
Such were His habits of the last night-watch.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: devamanussaṃ - royalty and common people?
Another well known instance of the Buddha teaching devas is the opening of the Mangala Sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nara.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Thus have I heard.[1] On one occasion the Exalted One was dwelling at Anathapindika's monastery, in Jeta's Grove,[2] near Savatthi.[3] Now when the night was far spent, a certain deity whose surpassing splendor illuminated the entire Jeta Grove, came to the presence of the Exalted One and, drawing near, respectfully saluted him and stood at one side. Standing thus, he addressed the Exalted One in verse:
"Many deities and men, yearning after good, have pondered on blessings.[4] Pray, tell me the greatest blessing!"
[The Buddha:]
"Not to associate with the foolish,[5] but to associate with the wise; and to honor those who are worthy of honor — this is the greatest blessing.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Re: devamanussaṃ - royalty and common people?
Thanks Bhante D. And Bhante G. for the references.
Searching for "abhikkantāya rattiyā" throughout the pali sutta in DPR, mostly the references are to devas approaching but a few instances it's ananda. I wonder if the Buddha's office hours for devas had any kind of priority system, for example, if Brahma realm devas could cut to the front of the line.
Seeing the Mangala sutta reference, this brings up a couple of pali question I've had for some time. I never understood how all of those virtuous qualities "blessings" (mangala) enumerated in the sutta could be considered "this is THE highest". (etaṃ maṅgalamuttamaṃ.)
I thought only one thing is THE best, the highest. If you're going to list multiple qualities, they could all be "high", or maybe you could say they're all in the "highest CLASS", but there can only be one highest.
The second question is whether mangala translated as 'blessing' makes any sense for the virtuous qualities listed. Thanissaro translates mangala as "protection" in the sutta, so when it's repeated in the refrains with each virtue being the "highest protection", the logic makes more sense.
merriam dictionary defines blessing as:
1. approval that allows or helps you to do something
2. : help and approval from God
3. : something that helps you or brings happiness
ok, i guess meaning #3 works for the sutta, but typically that's not the main meaning most people think of when they think of blessing right?
The reason I find "blessing" an objectionable translation for "mangala" in this sutta is that it has a connotation of randomness, blind faith, grace, rather than virtue being derived from wisdom, born of right view, leading to happiness for very clearly apparent conditioned, dependently arisen factors that can be observed here and now. In other words, taking those enumerated virtues, which disciples should be able to personally see the connection to wisdom, and making them seem like mere articles of blind faith to be followed because the Buddha said so.
I know the Buddha was using the word "mangala" because that's how the deva asked the question and wanted an answer in terms of that, but because this is such a popular sutta, I find it unfortunate if people get the wrong idea about what the Buddha means by mangala.
Searching for "abhikkantāya rattiyā" throughout the pali sutta in DPR, mostly the references are to devas approaching but a few instances it's ananda. I wonder if the Buddha's office hours for devas had any kind of priority system, for example, if Brahma realm devas could cut to the front of the line.
Seeing the Mangala sutta reference, this brings up a couple of pali question I've had for some time. I never understood how all of those virtuous qualities "blessings" (mangala) enumerated in the sutta could be considered "this is THE highest". (etaṃ maṅgalamuttamaṃ.)
I thought only one thing is THE best, the highest. If you're going to list multiple qualities, they could all be "high", or maybe you could say they're all in the "highest CLASS", but there can only be one highest.
The second question is whether mangala translated as 'blessing' makes any sense for the virtuous qualities listed. Thanissaro translates mangala as "protection" in the sutta, so when it's repeated in the refrains with each virtue being the "highest protection", the logic makes more sense.
merriam dictionary defines blessing as:
1. approval that allows or helps you to do something
2. : help and approval from God
3. : something that helps you or brings happiness
ok, i guess meaning #3 works for the sutta, but typically that's not the main meaning most people think of when they think of blessing right?
The reason I find "blessing" an objectionable translation for "mangala" in this sutta is that it has a connotation of randomness, blind faith, grace, rather than virtue being derived from wisdom, born of right view, leading to happiness for very clearly apparent conditioned, dependently arisen factors that can be observed here and now. In other words, taking those enumerated virtues, which disciples should be able to personally see the connection to wisdom, and making them seem like mere articles of blind faith to be followed because the Buddha said so.
I know the Buddha was using the word "mangala" because that's how the deva asked the question and wanted an answer in terms of that, but because this is such a popular sutta, I find it unfortunate if people get the wrong idea about what the Buddha means by mangala.
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Re: devamanussaṃ - royalty and common people?
That's true in English but in Pali expressions of degree are more flexible. It is very common to see what is semantically positive or comparative expressed using a form that is morphologically superlative. Though the practice may seem at first blush a little solecistic, it really isn't any more so than the English habit of using the comparative and superlative with words such as 'full', 'complete', 'unique', or 'empty' — adjectives which strictly speaking do not admit of degree, inasmuch as they already indicate an absence, a totality or an absolute.frank k wrote:I thought only one thing is THE best, the highest.
Maṅgala in its non-Buddhist use primarily meant a "good omen" and was translated accordingly by Ñāṇamoli. I don't know of any English word that is 100% adequate to cover both this meaning and the application that the Buddha makes of it.frank k wrote:The second question is whether mangala translated as 'blessing' makes any sense for the virtuous qualities listed.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)