first noble truth, SN 56.11 missing sorrow, lamentation, etc

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

first noble truth, SN 56.11 missing sorrow, lamentation, etc

Postby frank k » Mon May 20, 2013 8:37 pm

I was looking at two english translations for SN 56.11 dhammacakkappavatana sutta.
I then was looking at the pali, and am confused by the lack of "sorrow, lamentation, distress, suffering, despair" from the pali.
I checked the BJT (sri lankan) from ATI, The thai and burmese tipitaka via DPR, they all show about the same thing, with the "sorrow , lamentation..." missing between dukkho maranampi and dukkham appiyehi. I'm really confused. What's going on here?

BJT:
Idaṃ kho pana bhikkhave, dukkhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ: jātipi dukkhā jarāpi dukkhā vyādhipi dukkho maraṇampi dukkhaṃ appiyehi sampayogo dukkho piyehi vippayogo dukkho yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhaṃ saṅkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā".

Thanissaro:
"Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress:[1] Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

Peter Harvey:
"Now this, bhikkhus, for the spiritually ennobled ones, is the true reality which is pain: birth is painful, aging is painful, illness is painful, death is painful; sorrow, lamentation, physical pain, unhappiness and distress are painful; union with what is disliked is painful; separation from what is liked is painful; not to get what one wants is painful; in brief, the five bundles of grasping-fuel are painful.

I also noticed missing from the Thai Pali is the vyādipi dukkho.
http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings
frank k
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

2nd noble truth

Postby frank k » Mon May 20, 2013 8:47 pm

thai pali:
Idaṃ kho pana bhikkhave

dukkhasamudayo VAR ariyasaccaṃ. Yāyaṃ taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandirāgasahagatā

tatratatrābhinandinī. Seyyathīdaṃ. Kāmataṇhā bhavataṇhā

vibhavataṇhā.

thanissaro has:
"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

harvey:
"Now this, bhikkhus, for the spiritually ennobled ones, is the pain-originating true reality. It is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and attachment, seeking delight now here now there; that is, craving for sense-pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination (of what is not liked).

DPR dictionary entry (I think it's CPED) for ponobhavika as: leading to rebirth
and bhavatanha as craving for rebirth.

Is rebirth a valid interpretation for bhava in this context?
I like how Harvey takes a clear stand on vibhava tanha and gives a very specific meaning. Where as Thanissaro's "craving for non-becoming" is more literal and consistent in pali translation, but vague in meaning.

So the big question is does bhava/becoming cover present moment in life "becoming" moment by moment and inclusive of rebirth? Or was rebirth something the Buddha implied as a secondary consideration?
http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings
frank k
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: first noble truth, SN 56.11 missing sorrow, lamentation,

Postby Zakattack » Mon May 20, 2013 9:30 pm

frank k wrote:I then was looking at the pali, and am confused by the lack of "sorrow, lamentation, distress, suffering, despair" from the pali.

It seems obvious Buddha did not include these in his 1st sermon but they were later added in. Bhikkhu Bodhi does not include them in his translation of the 1st sermon. However, their subsequent inclusion is a useful explanatory principle, where these symptoms are included in the list of experiences (giving birth, sickness, aging, etc) that the puthujjana ordinarily perceives as 'suffering'.

The distinction may have existed due to where these things occur. Birth, aging, illness, death, separation, association & wanting something are experiences that occur before the arising of suffering. Where as sorrow, lamentation, distress, suffering, despair occur after the arising of suffering, i.e., they represent the final manifestation of suffering, as follows:

He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. He is seized with the idea that 'I am consciousness' or 'Consciousness is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his consciousness changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


On seeing a form with the eye, he is infatuated with pleasing forms, and gets upset over unpleasing forms. He dwells with body-mindfulness unestablished, with limited awareness. He doesn't discern, as it has come to be, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities cease without remainder. Engaged thus in compliance & opposition, he relishes any feeling he feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — welcomes it, & remains fastened to it. As he relishes that feeling, welcomes it, & remains fastened to it, delight arises. Now, any delight in feeling is clinging. From his clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Thus, it can be speculated Buddha originally thought their inclusion was unnecessary or not essential because they themselves are the outward symptoms of suffering rather than underlying conditions. By highlighting upadana (attachment) to the five aggregates as the essential matter, it is possible the Buddha was emphasising 'prevention' rather than 'cure'.

:candle:
Zakattack
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:07 am

Re: 2nd noble truth

Postby Dmytro » Tue May 21, 2013 3:47 am

HI Frank,

frank k wrote:Is rebirth a valid interpretation for bhava in this context?


Rebirth is the moment when the stationing of consciousness gets converted into corresponding lifetime. Bhava covers all of this.

Pathama-bhava sutta

Atha kho āyasmā ānando yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ nisīdi. Ekamantaṃ nisinno kho āyasmā ānando bhagavantaṃ etadavoca – ‘‘bhavo, bhavoti, bhante, vuccati. Kittāvatā nu kho, bhante, bhavo hotī’’ti?

Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, bowed down to him and sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, this word, 'becoming, becoming' — to what extent is there becoming?"

‘‘Kāmadhātuvepakkañca, ānanda, kammaṃ nābhavissa, api nu kho kāmabhavo paññāyethā’’ti? ‘‘No hetaṃ, bhante’’. ‘‘Iti kho, ānanda, kammaṃ khettaṃ, viññāṇaṃ bījaṃ, taṇhā sneho sineho (sī. syā. kaṃ. pī.). Avijjānīvaraṇānaṃ sattānaṃ taṇhāsaṃyojanānaṃ hīnāya dhātuyā viññāṇaṃ patiṭṭhitaṃ evaṃ āyatiṃ āyati (sī.) punabbhavābhinibbatti hoti. ( ) (evaṃ kho ānanda bhavo hotīti) (ka.) dutiyasutte pana idaṃ pāṭhanānattaṃ natthi

"Ananda, if there were no kamma ripening in the sensuality-property, would sensuality-becoming be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture.[2] The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a lower property [in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, - 'inferior realm', i.e. the realm of sensuality]. Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future.

‘‘Rūpadhātuvepakkañca, ānanda, kammaṃ nābhavissa, api nu kho rūpabhavo paññāyethā’’ti? ‘‘No hetaṃ, bhante’’. ‘‘Iti kho ānanda, kammaṃ khettaṃ, viññāṇaṃ bījaṃ, taṇhā sneho. Avijjānīvaraṇānaṃ sattānaṃ taṇhāsaṃyojanānaṃ majjhimāya dhātuyā viññāṇaṃ patiṭṭhitaṃ evaṃ āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbatti hoti. ( ) (evaṃ kho ānanda bhavo hotīti) (ka.) dutiyasutte pana idaṃ pāṭhanānattaṃ natthi

"If there were no kamma ripening in the form-property, would form-becoming be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture. The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a middling property [in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, - 'middling realm', i.e. realm of form]. Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future.

‘‘Arūpadhātuvepakkañca, ānanda, kammaṃ nābhavissa, api nu kho arūpabhavo paññāyethā’’ti? ‘‘No hetaṃ, bhante’’. ‘‘Iti kho, ānanda, kammaṃ khettaṃ, viññāṇaṃ bījaṃ, taṇhā sneho. Avijjānīvaraṇānaṃ sattānaṃ taṇhāsaṃyojanānaṃ paṇītāya dhātuyā viññāṇaṃ patiṭṭhitaṃ evaṃ āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbatti hoti. Evaṃ kho, ānanda, bhavo hotī’’ti.

"If there were no kamma ripening in the formless-property, would formless-becoming be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture. The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a refined property [in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, - 'superior realm', i.e. realm of formless]. Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. This is how there is becoming."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
User avatar
Dmytro
 
Posts: 1161
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: first noble truth, SN 56.11 missing sorrow, lamentation,

Postby Sekha » Tue May 21, 2013 5:08 am

frank k wrote:I.. am confused by the lack of "sorrow, lamentation, distress, suffering, despair" from the pali.

I think this has more to do with how the sutta was recited way in the past, than anything else. So, there is not necessarily a precise meaning to this omission. It could have been just a transmission flaw.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59
User avatar
Sekha
 
Posts: 751
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Location: French Guiana

Re: first noble truth, SN 56.11 missing sorrow, lamentation,

Postby Sylvester » Thu May 23, 2013 12:59 am

frank k wrote:I was looking at two english translations for SN 56.11 dhammacakkappavatana sutta.
I then was looking at the pali, and am confused by the lack of "sorrow, lamentation, distress, suffering, despair" from the pali.
I checked the BJT (sri lankan) from ATI, The thai and burmese tipitaka via DPR, they all show about the same thing, with the "sorrow , lamentation..." missing between dukkho maranampi and dukkham appiyehi. I'm really confused. What's going on here?




Hi

Check out the PTS edition by Feer (1898) Volume V at p.421 (ie S v 421). It's there. "Sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā" is where it should be in this variant reading. You can check out p.vii for all the MSS consulted (Se from Copenhagen and Paris; Be from Paris; Be in personal collection). Some inflections are also different.

The compound also appears in the PTS edition of the DN 22, D ii 304.

Hope this helps.
Sylvester
 
Posts: 1585
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: first noble truth, SN 56.11 missing sorrow, lamentation,

Postby frank k » Thu May 30, 2013 2:34 pm

Thanks to all for the comments.

Zak, that's an interesting thought on "why" the exclusion, and what you proposed makes sense except for dukkha is among the list of the excluded items "sokehi, paridevehi, dukkhehi, ..." although you could say that the excluded dukkha is the conventional dukkha vs. the dukkha as ariya sacca.

Dmytro, thanks for that citation. "bhava" does seem quite comprehensive in that context, from tanha, upaadana up to rebirth in realms of sensuality, fine material, formless realms.
http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings
frank k
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm


Return to Pali

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests