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Re: The translation of Muditā

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:41 pm
by SarathW
May be a dumb question. If there is no “I” how can you extend Mudita for yourself? It depend on your advancement, I think. However in Metta Bhavana,
I was instructed to extend Metta towards myself too.
Mudita towards yourself can lead to one of the fetters- Mana, I think. :)

Re: The translation of Muditā

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:03 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings,
SarathW wrote:May be a dumb question. If there is no “I” how can you extend Mudita for yourself? It depend on your advancement, I think.
Not a dumb question, but I'd suggest that perhaps mudita, metta etc. aren't "extended" per se - rather they are simply felt or experienced as a state of mind. Any matter of "extended" is a matter of technique, rather than anything inherent in the states of mind themselves.

If you do interpret them as being states of mind, whether the supposed object (and let's not forget that objects are anatta too!) underpinning that feeling is classifiable as "internal" or "external" would be a secondary concern at best. This would also seem compatible with the Abhidhammic mind-state model which does not differentiate in such a way between the internal and external.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: The translation of Muditā

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:31 am
by beeblebrox
retrofuturist wrote: "Selfless and boundless" would not discriminate between "self" and "other"...
Exactly... I think that's why there shouldn't be any problem in viewing this as a practice which is directed towards others. There is still going to be joy all around.

That doesn't mean that the person can't be happy for himself... but seems like that's technically not mudita. If that makes him unhappy that he couldn't call it mudita, then maybe that's envy?

:anjali:

Re: The translation of Muditā

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:59 am
by SarathW
It is impossible for happy for others,unless if he/she is happy for him/her self! :)

Re: The translation of Muditā

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:18 pm
by starter
Hello friends,

Thanks for the helpful discussions. As I understand, the Dhamma practice is a step-by-step process. We first need to wash away the grossest "sand" and not to harm others; jealousy/covetousness directed toward others is more a grosser "sand" we need to get rid of than the finer "sand" of discontent directed toward ourselves, for the practice of non-cruelty/non-harming.

By the way, I'd appreciate an English translation of the following, if possible:

"cūḷakammavibhaṅgasuttaṃ ‚@ mynm.mac.upari. 293/246.

idha pana, māṇava, ekacco itthī vā puriso vā anissāmanako hoti; paralābhasakkāragarukāramānanavandanapūjanāsu na issati na upadussati na issaṃ bandhatiฯ so tena kammena evaṃ samattenaevaṃ samādinnena kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā sugati๎ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjatiฯ no ce kāyassa bhedāparaṃ maraṇā sugati๎ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati, sace manussattaṃ āgacchati yattha yattha paccājāyatimahesakkho hotiฯ mahesakkhasaṃvattanikā esā, māṇava, paṭipadā yadidaṃ— anissāmanako hoti; paralābhasakkāragarukāramānanavandanapūjanāsu na issati na upadussati na issaṃ bandhatiฯ" [kindly provided by theY]

Metta to all!

Starter

Re: The translation of Muditā

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:39 pm
by tiltbillings
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: The translation of Muditā

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:40 pm
by Dhammanando
starter wrote:By the way, I'd appreciate an English translation of the following, if possible:

"cūḷakammavibhaṅgasuttaṃ ‚@ mynm.mac.upari. 293/246.

idha pana, māṇava, ekacco itthī vā puriso vā anissāmanako hoti; paralābhasakkāragarukāramānanavandanapūjanāsu na issati na upadussati na issaṃ bandhatiฯ so tena kammena evaṃ samattenaevaṃ samādinnena kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā sugati๎ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjatiฯ no ce kāyassa bhedāparaṃ maraṇā sugati๎ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati, sace manussattaṃ āgacchati yattha yattha paccājāyatimahesakkho hotiฯ mahesakkhasaṃvattanikā esā, māṇava, paṭipadā yadidaṃ— anissāmanako hoti; paralābhasakkāragarukāramānanavandanapūjanāsu na issati na upadussati na issaṃ bandhatiฯ" [kindly provided by theY]
  • "But here some woman or man is not envious, he does not envy, begrudge or harbor envy about others' gain, honor, veneration, respect, salutations and offerings. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination... If instead he comes to the human state, he is influential wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to influence, that is to say, not to be envious, not to envy, begrudge or harbor envy about others' gain, honor, veneration, respect, salutations and offerings.
http://www.vipassana.com/canon/majjhima/mn135.php

Re: The translation of Muditā

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:54 pm
by daverupa
I would like to recommend a close study of SN 46.62-6 in this connection; of the possible ways to develop the factors for awakening, these five together show that the factors for awakening are to be developed alongside the brahmaviharas, as well as anapanasati. Relevant here, therefore, is the idea of developing the factors for awakening alongside mudita.

Pervading the surround is a description of practice we are familiar with; splicing this together with the factors for awakening doesn't seem to come up in conversations about the brahmaviharas very often (if at all?), but in any event there is no self/other talk when the factors are discussed in this way, and I thought it might help us zero in on a practical approach.

Possibly off-topic?

Re: The translation of Muditā

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:26 am
by theY
Hi all again,

Muditā in self is a learning step of muditā brāhmavihāra, it isn't a real bhāvanā.

So, bhadanta buddhaghosa said that 'brāhmavihāra brāhmavihāra in self, isn't the way to get jhāna'.

Commentary-teachers add this step for leaning brāhmavihāra-bhāvanā-citta by concentrating giving, pleasing, rejoicing, and ignoring in self.

What is the feeling when you want to make you comfortable, bring yourself out of dukkha, rejoice your good getting, or restraint one's mind off your mistaken thing.

See it, notice it then spread it to another all.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Everybody, who just has read brahmavihāra in visuddhimagga, hasn't memorize and practice it, must misunderstand on this step--muditā in self.

Yes, Memorized person also misunderstand this step, too. but I'm not included. So, buddha very emphasis in memorization, because it is very important for understand in dhamma+vinaya.

Re: The translation of Muditā

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:41 pm
by Assaji
Hi Daverupa,
daverupa wrote:I would like to recommend a close study of SN 46.62-6 in this connection; of the possible ways to develop the factors for awakening, these five together show that the factors for awakening are to be developed alongside the brahmaviharas, as well as anapanasati. Relevant here, therefore, is the idea of developing the factors for awakening alongside mudita.
This is very natural. One develops remembrance (sati) of mudita, discerns accordingly the mental behaviour (dhamma-vicaya), applies four right efforts (viriya), and enters jhanas (piti, passadhi, samadhi, upekkha) - much like described in Dvedhavitakka sutta and Mahanama sutta:

At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Tathagata. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: The translation of Muditā

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2023 3:40 pm
by balaputradeva
Dhammanando wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:03 am This is not to say that joy doesn’t arise on account of one’s own sampattis, but merely that ‘joy’ in this case would be a term for something other than muditā. Whereas muditā is always reckoned as wholesome (except when occurring in the kiriyācittas of an arahant, when it is merely functional), the joy that arise in connection with one’s own sampattis may be wholesome or unwholesome. If, for example, you win the lottery and joy arises as you dream of all the ways you’ll now be able to indulge yourself, then this would be unwholesome pīti and sukha. But if joy arises as you contemplate all the gifts that you now plan to give people, then it would be wholesome pīti and sukha. In neither case would the joy be termed muditā.
Then, how about being mudita for someone happiness form successful rob bank, get money from telling lies, murder, etc? Is this also called mudita?
Thanks

Re: The translation of Muditā

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2023 6:00 pm
by frank k
balaputradeva wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 3:40 pm
Dhammanando wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:03 am This is not to say that joy doesn’t arise on account of one’s own sampattis, but merely that ‘joy’ in this case would be a term for something other than muditā. Whereas muditā is always reckoned as wholesome (except when occurring in the kiriyācittas of an arahant, when it is merely functional), the joy that arise in connection with one’s own sampattis may be wholesome or unwholesome. If, for example, you win the lottery and joy arises as you dream of all the ways you’ll now be able to indulge yourself, then this would be unwholesome pīti and sukha. But if joy arises as you contemplate all the gifts that you now plan to give people, then it would be wholesome pīti and sukha. In neither case would the joy be termed muditā.
Then, how about being mudita for someone happiness form successful rob bank, get money from telling lies, murder, etc? Is this also called mudita?
Thanks
I have some detailed notes I've collected on the subject over the years here:
https://lucid24.org/tped/m/mudita/index.html
and here:
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... icing.html

mudita : rejoicing in skillful Dharmas
✅ one rejoices in virtuous, skillful Dharmas in oneself, in others, or both in oneself and others.
* virtuous skillful Dharma can be a bodily action, a verbal action, or mental action (if you're a mind reader you can rejoice in virtuous thoughts someone is thinking or about to think).
* The skillful Dharma can be from the past, present, or future.
* an action that deliberately avoids unskillful Dharmas, is also a skillful Dharma.
* the person one is observing performing virtuous Dharma is typically, but not necessarily experiencing joy. Example: someone does an action because "it's the right thing to do", but they feel pain instead of joy.
✅ Mudita is nearly synonymous or the immediate precursor to pamojja and pīti in the seven awakening factors 4😁 , and pīti in the first two jhānas. (AN 5.26, AN 4.125 and AN 4.126)
✅ Muditā can be done concurrently with sati , samādhi, 4 jhānas (4j🌕 ), in any posture AN 8.63. Alternatively, one could enter jhāna samādhi directly without using pīti, mudita, and abide with or without sukha.
✅ Mudita as a brahma-vihara 3.😊 , in the Buddha's EBT , is in some ways more versatile than pre-Buddhist Mudita, but in other ways more restrictive to bring it into conformity with the Buddha's Dharma that leads to Nirvana instead of just good rebirth in Brahma realm. (see par for the Buddha )
⛔ Mudita is not an indiscriminate rejoicing at someone experiencing joy, especially if they are joyful from performing unskillful Dharmas.

Re: The translation of Muditā

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2023 6:09 pm
by frank k
balaputradeva wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 3:40 pm
Dhammanando wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:03 am This is not to say that joy doesn’t arise on account of one’s own sampattis, but merely that ‘joy’ in this case would be a term for something other than muditā. Whereas muditā is always reckoned as wholesome (except when occurring in the kiriyācittas of an arahant, when it is merely functional), the joy that arise in connection with one’s own sampattis may be wholesome or unwholesome. If, for example, you win the lottery and joy arises as you dream of all the ways you’ll now be able to indulge yourself, then this would be unwholesome pīti and sukha. But if joy arises as you contemplate all the gifts that you now plan to give people, then it would be wholesome pīti and sukha. In neither case would the joy be termed muditā.
Then, how about being mudita for someone happiness form successful rob bank, get money from telling lies, murder, etc? Is this also called mudita?
Thanks

Re-reading this thread, I notice another problem with Dhammanando's analysis on page 1:
None of the occurrences of the term in the Sutta Pitaka is accompanied by any definition as such. However, the abhidhammic identification of muditā as a state opposed to arati is supported in the Dasuttara Sutta:

Or he might say, "I have developed the emancipation of the heart through sympathetic joy, and yet resentment still grips my heart..." He should be told, "No! Do not say that! Do not misrepresent the Blessed Lord, it is not right to slander him thus, for he would not have said such a thing! Your words are unfounded and impossible. If you develop the emancipation of the heart through sympathetic joy, resentment has no chance to envelop your heart. This emancipation through sympathetic joy is the cure for resentment."
arati is not envy or 'resentment' as he translates above, in opposition to mudita.
He's clearly influenced by commentary and Abhidhamma.
arati is:
fem. dissatisfaction; dislike; discontent; aversion; boredom; lit. non-delight [na > a + √ram + ti] ✓
joy is what opposes dissatisfaction, not a weirdly specific non-envy to oppose envy/resentment.

If you see my analysis here,
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... -what.html
AN 5.162 is the sutta that really gives an authoratative definition and context for mudita as a brahmavihara, and supports my conclusion from the previous post.
That mudita as a brahmavihara is no different that pīti+pamojja -pa-mudita causal chain in the 7 awakening factor sequence.
That rejoicing in skillful dharmas can be directed at oneself, others, both, etc.

Re: The translation of Muditā

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2023 6:32 pm
by frank k
I don't see the Ab Vb implying that mudita should not be directed toward oneself.
If they are, then they're also saying all four brahmaviharas are not directed toward oneself, because all the Ab Vb is doing is glossing all the terms in the standard 4bv formula to pervade that brahmavihara in all directions.

https://lucid24.org/sted/ebt/not/te-ab/ ... index.html

Ab Vb really doesn't tell you anything about the nuances of what the 4bv are.
They use the same example of "seeing a dear person" for metta, as they do for mudita. Whereas karuna and upekkha get distinct differences from metta.


Assaji wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:39 am Hello Starter,

In the early texts, such as Vibhanga cited below, Muditā is defined as directed toward other beings, and developed to the level of jhana.
Evidently it is not directed toward oneself.

3. Muditā

663. Kathañca bhikkhu muditāsahagatena cetasā ekaṃ disaṃ pharitvā viharati? Seyyathāpi nāma ekaṃ puggalaṃ piyaṃ manāpaṃ disvā mudito assa, evameva sabbe satte muditāya pharati.

Tattha katamā muditā? Yā sattesu muditā muditāyanā muditāyitattaṃ muditācetovimutti – ayaṃ vuccati ‘‘muditā’’.

Tattha katamaṃ cittaṃ? Yaṃ cittaṃ mano mānasaṃ…pe… tajjāmanoviññāṇadhātu – idaṃ vuccati ‘‘cittaṃ’’. Idaṃ cittaṃ imāya muditāya sahagataṃ hoti sahajātaṃ saṃsaṭṭhaṃ sampayuttaṃ. Tena vuccati ‘‘muditāsahagatena cetasā’’ti.

2. Abhidhammabhājanīyaṃ

683. Catasso appamaññāyo – mettā, karuṇā, muditā, upekkhā.

688. Tattha katamā muditā? Idha bhikkhu yasmiṃ samaye rūpūpapattiyā maggaṃ bhāveti vivicceva kāmehi…pe… paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati muditāsahagataṃ, yā tasmiṃ samaye muditā muditāyanā muditāyitattaṃ muditācetovimutti – ayaṃ vuccati ‘‘muditā’’. Avasesā dhammā muditāya sampayuttā.

Re: The translation of Muditā

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:54 pm
by Gwi II
starter wrote: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:04 pm Hi, I'm wondering if it would be better to translate Muditā (joy) as appreciative joy, instead of altruistic, sympathetic, or empathetic joy, because to my understanding it is not really the selfless joy. We rejoice at our own and others’ goodness and wellbeing, both filled with peace and contentment instead of exhilaration obtained from sensual pleasure. Mudita can serve as an inner spring of joy and contentment, which is a prerequisite for Samadhi, and can also serve as antidotes to negative mental states (non-virtues) such as discontent, anger, resentment, jealousy, or envy. It appears to be as important to be able to rejoice at our own good deeds and success.

By the way, I couldn't find an English or Chinese sutta that actually defined the meaning of Muditā. I'd appreciate your recommendations of such suttas.

Thanks and metta!
In Indonesian, we translate:
"kegembiraan altruistik (altruistic joy)"

Muditā: happy to see others happy,
but not sad when others are sad
(he wants others to be happy)

Muditā is to get rid of envy (heartburning)