Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:09 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:How then to develop that type of right concentartion that is particular to the sasana of the Buddha..

MAJJHIMA NIKAAYA III
(5.7) Mahaasa.laayatanikasutta.m.
149. The Longer Discourse on the six spheres

http://www.vipassana.info/149-mahasalayatanika-e.htm
To someone who learns and realizes, eye, forms, eye-consciousness,
eye contact and whatever feelings pleasant or unpleasant or neither
unpleasant nor pleasant born of eye contact, as they really are.
Attachment does not arise for eye, forms, eye-consciousness, eye
contact and whatever feelings pleasant or unpleasant or neither
unpleasant nor pleasant born of that eye contact. This one not
attached, unyoked and not deluded, abiding seeing the danger does
not accumulate in the five holding masses for the future. His
craving, interest and greed, to be here and there in the future,
cease. His bodily and mental troubles, anxiety and laments cease.
Further he experiences bodily and mental pleasantness. Whatever his
view, it becomes right view. Whatever his thoughts, they become
right thoughts. Whatever his speech it becomes right speech.
Whatever his actions, they become right actions. Whatever his
effort, it becomes right effort. Whatever his mindfulness, it
becomes right mindfulness. Whatever his concentration, it becomes
RIGHT CONCENTRATION.
Yes. That is a nice summary of the U Ba Khin and Mahasi Sayadaw type practices.


As to the correct development of wisdom, the Vsm, first talsk about the "soil" of wisdom. This involves hearing about, learning about, and understanding certain teachings on dhamma. The first one listed is the aggregates one has to learn definitions of them to know what they consist of conceptually. It breaks down different models for this. For the first aggregate, form, you can learn the abhidhamma breakdown of the great elements and all the derived rupa. Then you learn about the feeling aggregatre etc. Then you are implored to regard them all in a specific different way. For example, the form aggregate is always thought of and regarded as "foam that is squeezed" because it cannot withstand pressure and always changes. For each aggregate there is a certain ways to look at it (Consciousness as a magic trick and so on). The other elements in the "soil" of understanding are the sense bases and elements, the faculties and truths, and then Dependent Origination.

Only after there is "soil" can there grow the roots and trunk. So the roots and trunk of wisdom come next after one has learned about the soil and are described very specifically. First of all, one who has mastery of jhana emerges from jhana and reviews consciousness and it's conditions very carefully using the power gained from jhana. One who has less than mastery of jhana, ie. has reached jhana but cannot gain the five masteries, or has access concentration or less, reviews in a different specific way. First he must define mentallity and materliallity and become very clear about it (these are different than the vipassana stages). Vsm says: "But one whose vehicle is pure insight, or that same aforesaid one whose vehicle is serenity, discerns the four elements in brief or in detail in one of the various ways given in the chapter on the definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, §27ff.)". The Vsm makes it clear that there are specific ways to go about this and that one must first become very clear about materiallity before moving on to mentallity. One person does it by way of the Four Elements, another by way of the the Eighteen Elements, one by way of the Twelve Sense Bases, another by way of the Defiinition of the Aggregates, another through a Brief Definition on the Four Primaries. Those are the only ways listed and they are all derived from Suttas and texts. One has to review again and again untill the distinction of materiallity and mentallity becomes extremely, abundantly clear to one by way of one of these specific contemplations derived from Suttas. They are intellectuall contemplations. First one does materiallity and only then mentallity. This is caled "Purification of View". Only once Purification of View is stable can one move on to Purification by Removing Doubt, where one discerns the conditions for the materiallity and the mentallity that one know understand through various ways, ie. by Dependent Originination in Reverse Order, or by other ways listed in the text. After one becomes very, very clear of the conditions causing the nama and rupa, one goes onto other contemplations in the text called "purifications" because they purify ones view and help to conditions strong wisdom. They are very, very specific in nature and are derived from suttas and the Canon. There are Five Purifications listed in the section of Wisdom that wise people should go through.

You can see how much easier it is for one who can gain mastery of jhanas: they can remain in their blissful abiding of jhana, exit it and review in brief the way told for those people (the instructions on it only take up a couple of paragraphs in the Vsm!). Then they can re-enter jhana, exit and review again at their will, and so on. This takes mastery of jhana.

For all the other people it is much more complicated. Now does this sound like the Mahasi way, or the way of other modern vipassana teachers? No, it doesn't.

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:12 pm

Virgo wrote:
For all the other people it is much more complicated. Now does this sound like the Mahasi way, or the way of other modern vipassana teachers? No, it doesn't.
The above quote given by the robertk does, however. The modern vipassana teachings draw from the "dry" practices outlined by Buddhaghosa, but one needs to keep in mind that they are not as dry as as Buddhaghosa describes, which has been point out elsewhere in this forum.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:37 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
For all the other people it is much more complicated. Now does this sound like the Mahasi way, or the way of other modern vipassana teachers? No, it doesn't.
The above quote given by the robertk does, however. The modern vipassana teachings draw from the "dry" practices outlined by Buddhaghosa, but one needs to keep in mind that they are not as dry as as Buddhaghosa describes, which has been point out elsewhere in this forum.


My argument is that they do not "draw from the dry practices outlined by Buddhaghosa" but misunderstand them. You say that they are not as "dry as Buddhaghosa describes". So Mahasi Sayadaw understood wisdom better than Buddhaghosa did I see.

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:49 pm

Virgo wrote:
My argument is that they do not "draw from the dry practices outlined by Buddhaghosa" but misunderstand them. You say that they are not as "dry as Buddhaghosa describes". So Mahasi Sayadaw understood wisdom better than Buddhaghosa did I see.
The problem is, Kevin, you have not made an argument. You quote something, you make an assertion about it, but you have yet to make an actual argument. There is a big difference.

''You say that they are not as "dry as Buddhaghosa describes".' Mahasi Sayadaw did not say that. I did on the basis of rather detailed discussions of jhana and what jhana is as understood by recent jhana practitioners.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:01 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
My argument is that they do not "draw from the dry practices outlined by Buddhaghosa" but misunderstand them. You say that they are not as "dry as Buddhaghosa describes". So Mahasi Sayadaw understood wisdom better than Buddhaghosa did I see.
The problem is, Kevin, you have not made an argument. You quote something, you make an assertion about it, but you have yet to make an actual argument. There is a big difference.

''You say that they are not as "dry as Buddhaghosa describes".' Mahasi Sayadaw did not say that. I did on the basis of rather detailed discussions of jhana and what jhana is as understood by recent jhana practitioners.


My argument is clear cut and well stated. I'll repeat it in brief. The Vsm states that for wisdom to arise there must be certain things. The Vsm is clear that the soil comes first (before that though the roots of sila and samadhi). It describes the soil as understanding certain dhamma teachings very clearly. Without this soil there can be no trunk. Those teachings I have listed. They include the aggregates -- what exactly those aggregates are and how to regard them, then by way of sense bases, elements, truths and Dependent Origination. It explains with clear language that after the soil is understood the next phase, the trunk, can be approached. Then it tells how the first of the five purifications of the trunk is to be approached. That is by regarding materiallity first by way of one of several, very specific contemplations. Then, after that, regarding mentallity very clearly by way of one of those same contemplations. After that has been accomplished, ones view about nama and rupa are greatly clarified. Next comes the next purification. With the knowledge gained from the first, one contemplates first the origin, the conditions for arising, of the materiallity one has understood and then of the mentallity that one has understood using any one of a few specific classifications which are all given and described in that section. Then one moves on the the third of the five purifications, then the fourth, then the fifth. These are all done in order in a specific way. They contain understanding the eye base, the eye consciousness, and so and so forth but they never ever ever ever mention simply focusing on it as it arises to see it's characteristics, it mentions understanding and regarding it in a certain way. They are all thorough intellectual processes one goes through. None of them are "meditation" as in trying to have sati and be aware of sounds or sights, etc.

Mahasi Sayadaw invented his technique. It is not derived from the Satipatthana Sutta. The Commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta read more like the Visuddhimagge interpretation than anything else. Although the sections on samattha says you should just have bare awareness of an object while doing samattha. It is all about understanding intellectually, not focusing on things as they occur.

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:17 pm

Greetings Virgo,

Virgo wrote:They contain understanding the eye base, the eye consciousness, and so and so forth but they never ever ever ever mention simply focusing on it as it arises to see it's characteristics, it mentions understanding and regarding it in a certain way.

By characteristics do you mean the general characteristics of anicca, anatta and dukkha... or the type of lower-level specifics we see characterised in Abhidhammic tables etc.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:28 pm

Virgo wrote:
My argument is clear cut and well stated. I'll repeat it in brief.
What you repeat is what the VM states. What that is is stating what the VM states. It is not an argument.

Mahasi Sayadaw invented his technique. It is not derived from the Satipatthana Sutta. The Commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta read more like the Visuddhimagge interpretation than anything else. Although the sections on samattha says you should just have bare awareness of an object while doing samattha. It is all about understanding intellectually, not focusing on things as they occur.
It is far more than understanding things intellectually, as the suttas I referenced plainly show, and there is no reason to read the VM in such a limited way as you are trying to present it. You have given no argument for that, either. As for for the Mahasi Sayadaw technique, that has been neatly dealt with by Mike and me and neatly ignored by you.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:31 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Virgo,

Virgo wrote:They contain understanding the eye base, the eye consciousness, and so and so forth but they never ever ever ever mention simply focusing on it as it arises to see it's characteristics, it mentions understanding and regarding it in a certain way.

By characteristics do you mean the general characteristics of anicca, anatta and dukkha... or the type of lower-level specifics we see characterised in Abhidhammic tables etc.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Anicca, anatta, and dukkha Retro.

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:38 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
My argument is clear cut and well stated. I'll repeat it in brief.
What you repeat is what the VM states. What that is is stating what the VM states. It is not an argument.


The "argument" is that the way the Vism describes developing wisdom is different and does not match up with the way Mahasi Sayadaw explains it or instructs on doing it.

[quote"tiltbillings"]
Virgo wrote:Mahasi Sayadaw invented his technique. It is not derived from the Satipatthana Sutta. The Commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta read more like the Visuddhimagge interpretation than anything else. Although the sections on samattha says you should just have bare awareness of an object while doing samattha. It is all about understanding intellectually, not focusing on things as they occur.
It is far more than understanding things intellectually, as the suttas I referenced plainly show, and there is no reason to read the VM in such a limited way as you are trying to present it. You have given no argument for that, either. As for for the Mahasi Sayadaw technique, that has been neatly dealt with by Mike and me and neatly ignored by you.[/quote]

The Suttas you referenced are the same. Some of those same suttas and suttas just like them which go over the same subjects are cited in the Vism, when it describes how to regard those things.

I have not ignored a thing. I have explained that the way he approaches the development of wisdom does not match with how the Visuddhimagga interprets it. You have ignored this because of your attachment to the technique. Your arguing that the labelling is taught by the Buddha is insubstantial because it is only ever taught in relation to samattha, not in relation to developing wisdom.

Be well,

Kevin
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:38 pm

Hi Kevin,

All I can say is that after practising with my teachers for a while, when I read the Visuddhimagga all the stuff about the bases, etc sounded quite familiar. As Tilt says, you're not making a case. You're just repeating the same line that Sayadaw Mahasi and his students don't understand the Visuddhimagga. Which would be a little odd, since, among other things, Sayadaw Mahasi translated the Visuddhimagga and it's commentary into Burmese.

Of course, it is inevitable that different teachers will disagree with detailed interpretation of the material in the Visuddhimagga, so it's interesting to discuss some of those details. However, you have not yet addressed any details.

Mike
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:51 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Kevin,

All I can say is that after practising with my teachers for a while, when I read the Visuddhimagga all the stuff about the bases, etc sounded quite familiar. As Tilt says, you're not making a case. You're just repeating the same line that Sayadaw Mahasi and his students don't understand the Visuddhimagga. Which would be a little odd, since, among other things, Sayadaw Mahasi translated the Visuddhimagga and it's commentary into Burmese.

Of course, it is inevitable that different teachers will disagree with detailed interpretation of the material in the Visuddhimagga, so it's interesting to discuss some of those details. However, you have not yet addressed any details.

Mike

I certainly have. I refer you to the couple of posts I wrote above. It is natural that people gain confidence in Mahasi Sayadaws teaching. It causes you to gain some small degree of wisdom. It causes you to understand that different elements arise very quickly and that things are more complex and did than how we normally regard them. So naturally people who are uninstructed think they are doing well and developing. However, the wisdom is not nearly as deep as what comes from following the outline in the Vism which is very, very different. It does not match with how the Vism directs to develop deep wisdom, and I have clearly outlined how the Vism describes doing this by way of the soil and trunk and so on. The trunk contains the five purifications, which are a precise way of going about things. They condition wisdom that is deep, very deep, not a small wisdom like Mahasi Sayadaw that isn't clear about each thing. That is why they are taught in the specific order in which they are. One builds on the next That is the traditional way of developing wisdom. The Visuddhimagga tells the traditional way of developing the whole path, because Buddhaghosa was a master of the whole Tipitika and was accepted to write the book detailing the traditional way by the elders of the Mahavihara itself. Mahasi may have come from a traditionally leaning country such as Burma and may have studied the Dhamma and the Tipitika, but his approach is plainly not traditional. It does not match at all with the approach in the Visuddhimagga. There really can't be any denying this. I don't write this to argue, I write this to show people how different, vastly different, the approaches are. The modern vipassana techniques are not traditional, nor do they derive accurately from the traditional understanding.

Kevin

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:25 am

Virgo wrote:

The "argument" is that the way the Vism describes developing wisdom is different and does not match up with the way Mahasi Sayadaw explains it or instructs on doing it.
No. There is nothing in the VM that runs counter to Mahasi Sayadaw. The argument would be, if you actually made one, to show why we need to read the VM the way to you do and showing in detail how the VM runs counter to Mahasi Sayadaw, and that would mean actually showing what Mahasi Sayadaw has said and contrasting the two. You have not done a thing that even remotely resembles this.

The Suttas you referenced are the same. Some of those same suttas and suttas just like them which go over the same subjects are cited in the Vism, when it describes how to regard those things.
You think so?

I have not ignored a thing.
Of course you have.

I have explained that the way he approaches the development of wisdom does not match with how the Visuddhimagga interprets it.
You have simply stated it is so, but you offered no real explanation.

You have ignored this because of your attachment to the technique. Your arguing that the labelling is taught by the Buddha is insubstantial because it is only ever taught in relation to samattha, not in relation to developing wisdom.
You are not even representing what I said accurately.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:14 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:

The "argument" is that the way the Vism describes developing wisdom is different and does not match up with the way Mahasi Sayadaw explains it or instructs on doing it.
No. There is nothing in the VM that runs counter to Mahasi Sayadaw. The argument would be, if you actually made one, to show why we need to read the VM the way to you do and showing in detail how the VM runs counter to Mahasi Sayadaw, and that would mean actually showing what Mahasi Sayadaw has said and contrasting the two. You have not a thing that even remotely resembles this.


Please allow me to be more specific.

The Visuddhimagga explains that wisdom should be develop first through the soil and then the trunk. this, of course, after establishing sila and then concentration to whatever degree one can (some will attain master of jhana, some will just attain jhana, some will just attain access, some will not attain that).

So... please explain to me and show me where these modern vipassana techniques cover the soil of wisdom first. You will have to show me this to show that they are in line with the Visuddhimagga.

The soil is described as understanding certain specific subjects about dhamma and dispelling misunderstandings about them through studying and asking questions.

Those subjects are: The aggregates (one learns to define them and how to regard each one individually), the sense bases, the elements, the truths, and the faculties.

Where do these modern techniques teach these? Do they teach these to all people before they begin contemplation? For the text says that the trunk should be approached only after the soil of wisdom is understood.

If someone can show where it is made sure these things are understood beforehand I will agree that the modern techniques are in line with at least the "soil" section of the Visuddhimagga.

Now for the trunk. The trunk contains five purifications of wisdom.

Please explain where the first purification of wisdom is present in these modern techniques.

Please keep in mind the first purification has to do understanding the difference between materiallity and mentallity very, very clearly so that the conceptual idea of anything more than materiallity and mentallity arising is near deleted. *Please keep in mind* that first one must understand materiallity thoroughly before one moves onto mentallity. This is clearly pointed out. Please also keep in mind that there are only certain approved ways of doing this listed. They are: either by way of the Four Elements (this classification deals more than with just the elements of earth, water, fire and air), by way of the Eighteen Elements, by way of the Twelve Sense Bases, by way of Defiintion of the Aggregates, or through a Brief Definition of the Four Primaries. Those are the only ways listed and they are derived from Suttas.

Please show how Mahasi or Goenka method show how to do this by one of the approved listed classifications give above.

Next, the text states one should move on to the second purification. Once one is adept at understanding materiallity and mentallity and recognizing them by way of any one of the classification mentioned above, one goes about finding the conditions of first the materialltiy and then the mentallity. Keep in mind, again, that this is only done through a few ways. They are only to be done either by way of Dependent Origination in Reverse Order, Dependent Origination in Direct Order, Kama and Kamma Result. Those are the only ways mentioned in the text.

Next, after showing that the causes for materiallity and mentallity are reviewed either by way of Dependent Origination in Reverse Order, Dependent Origination in Direct Order, Kama and Kamma Result in these methods, plase show how they also fulfill the third purification, the fourth and the fifth all in turn.

If these methods can be shown to fulfill both the soil and all five purifications of the trunk of wisdom correctly, then I will think they are in line with the Visuddhimagga, which is the definition of classical view because it was written by Buddhaghosa, a master of the Tipitika, who approved to write it by the elders of the Mahavihara.

I'll be waiting.

Take care,

Kevin
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:21 am

Virgo wrote:I certainly have.
No, you have not.
I refer you to the couple of posts I wrote above. It is natural that people gain confidence in Mahasi Sayadaws teaching. It causes you to gain some small degree of wisdom. It causes you to understand that different elements arise very quickly and that things are more complex and did than how we normally regard them. So naturally people who are uninstructed think they are doing well and developing.
That is just you making these claims, but giving us no actual reason why we should take you seriously as a the arbiter of what the Mahasi Sayadaw practice can and cannot do.

However, the wisdom is not nearly as deep as what comes from following the outline in the Vism which is very, very different.
So you claim, but have not actually shown, and again, you have given us no reason why we should take your unsubstantiated claims as being an accurate reflection of reality.
It does not match with how the Vism directs to develop deep wisdom, and I have clearly outlined how the Vism describes doing this by way of the soil and trunk and so on.
Again, not that you have shown. You claim, you quote the VM, but you have not given us a careful, reasoned, and exampled argument to show it to be the case.

Mahasi may have come from a traditionally leaning country such as Burma and may have studied the Dhamma and the Tipitika, but his approach is plainly not traditional.
Who am I to believe? You? On what basis? You have yet to give us a carefully done argument for your position, though you have repeatedly quoted the VM at us, but never have you gone through it showing us why we should read it the way you do. You have not given us actual words from Mahasi Sayadaw showing us what he actually says and why his words do not match the VM or the suttas as you claim. And you have even misrepresented my position in what I said here, so why should we listen to you?
There really can't be any denying this.
I deny it, easily, given that you have not given us anything of actual substance.
The modern vipassana techniques are not traditional, nor do they derive accurately from the traditional understanding.
A claim you make, but have not supported.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:25 am

Virgo wrote:
Please allow me to be more specific. . . . .
Nothing new here. No real argument. You simply claim that U Ba Khin and Mahasi Sayadaw fall short, but you don't even portray their position with their own words. Maybe when you formulate and present a real argument there can be a meaningful exchange, but this - as it is - is a waste of time.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:28 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Please allow me to be more specific. . . . .
Nothing new here. No real argument. You simply claim that U Ba Khin and Mahasi Sayadaw fall short, but you don't even portray their position with their own words. Maybe when you formulate and present a real argument there can be a meaningful exchange, but this - as it is - is a waste of time.

If you wish to continue to claim that Mahasi and the rest are in line with Classical Dhamma, please explain where they cover the soil of widom, and then the trunk of wisdom, including all five purifications.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5167&start=60#p80798

You have not.

Thanks,

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:35 am

Greetings,

Virgo wrote:materiallity and mentallity

Whether nama-rupa is understood as above or as name-and-form, seems as if it would have a pretty big bearing on these purifications of wisdom.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:38 am

Virgo wrote:If you wish to continue to claim that Mahasi and the rest are in line with Classical Dhamma,
The problem is that you have not presented his position accurately in his words; you have not shown how the VM you quoted must be read the way you are reading it and you have not shown that the VM quotes contradict Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings. All you have done is asserted it with out doing any of the hard work. You are the one making the claim against Mahasi Sayadaw, so the onus falls upon you to make an actual argument for your position that Mahasi Sayadaw runs counter to the VM, something you have yet to do.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:54 am

At this point, Kevin, why don't you see what Retro is is up to. It might be more interesting than the repetition of the same old stuff.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:34 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:If you wish to continue to claim that Mahasi and the rest are in line with Classical Dhamma,
The problem is that you have not presented his position accurately in his words; you have not shown how the VM you quoted must be read the way you are reading it and you have not shown that the VM quotes contradict Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings. All you have done is asserted it with out doing any of the hard work. You are the one making the claim against Mahasi Sayadaw, so the onus falls upon you to make an actual argument for your position that Mahasi Sayadaw runs counter to the VM, something you have yet to do.

OK. I give a few brief quotes from the Vism to show this.

"HOW IS IT (Wisdom) DEVELOPED? Now the things classed as aggregates,
bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc., are
the soil of this understanding, and the [first] two purifications, namely,
purification of virtue and purification of consciousness, are its roots,
while the five purifications, namely, purification of view, purification by
overcoming doubt, purification by knowledge and vision of what is the
path and what is not the path, purification by knowledge and vision of
the way, and purification by knowledge and vision, are the trunk. Consequently,
one who is perfecting these should first fortify his knowledge
by learning and questioning about those things that are the 'soil' after he
has perfected the two purifications that are the 'roots', then he can develop
the five purifications that are the 'trunk9. This is in brief.

This shows that wisdom is developed first with the soil and then with the trunk.

Next what the soil consists of is shown. The first thing listed that should be understood is the Aggregates (beginning page 443, Nanamoli translation)

After that the other ones that should be understood are listed and detailed. After the Aggregates they are The Sense Bases, The Elements, The Faculties and the Truths, and lastly Dependent Origination. About this it is said:

Vism Ch XVIII, paragraph one:

"Now it was said earlier (Ch. XIV, §32) that he 'should first
fortify his knowledge by learning and questioning about those things that
are the "soil" after he has perfected the two purifications—purification
of virtue and purification of consciousness—that are the "roots"
...

2. But it was said above (Ch. XIV, §32) that 'The five purifications,
purification of view, purification by overcoming doubt, purification by
knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path,
purification by knowledge and vision of the way, and purification by
knowledge and vision, are the "trunk"


Next comes the trunk section after understanding of the soil.

The first section of the trunk is the first purification. I quote:

"But one whose vehicle is pure insight, or that same aforesaid one
whose vehicle is serenity, discerns the four elements in brief or in detail
in one of the various ways given
in the chapter on the definition of the
four elements (Ch. XI, §27ff.). Then when the elements have become
clear in their correct essential characteristics... This is how one [meditator] defines mentality-materiality in detail
through the method of defining the four elements"

The author shows that there are only a few select ways of doing it and describes each one. The next is on the Eighteen Elements. I quote:

"Another does it by means of the eighteen elements. How? Here a
bhikkhu considers the elements thus: 'There are in this person the eye
element,... the mind-consciousness element'. Instead of taking the piece
of flesh variegated with white and black circles, having length and breath,
and fastened in the eye socket with a string of sinew, which the world
terms 'an eye', he defines as 'eye element' the eye sensitivity of the kind
described among the kinds of derived materiality in the Description of
the Aggregates (Ch. XIV, §47).
... (and so on)


Or by defintion of the Twelve Bases.

"Another does it by means of the twelve bases. How? He defines
as 'eye base' the sensitivity only, leaving out the fifty-three remaining
instances of materiality, in the way described for the eye element. And in
the way described there [he also defines] the elements of the ear, nose,
tongue, and body, as 'ear base, nose base, tongue base, body base'. He
defines five states that are their respective objective fields as 'visibledata
base, sound base, odour base, flavour base, tangible-data base'
."


Or...

"Another defines it more briefly than that by means of the aggregates.
How? Here a bhikkhu defines as 'the materiality aggregate' all the
following 27"...


etc.

However, the text states that:

"But if he has discerned materiality in one of these ways, and
while he is trying to discern the immaterial it does not become evident to
him owing to its subtlety, then he should not give up but should again
and again comprehend, give attention to, discern, and define materiality
only. For in proportion as materiality becomes quite definite, disentangled
and quite clear to him, so the immaterial states that have that
[materiality] as their object become plain of themselves too."


This shows that one should define materiallity first and later mentallity. It also shows that there are only five ways of approaching this level (The only one I did not quote about here is the Brief Definition Based on the Four Primaries but it is similar to the others).

In conclusion, about there first contemplations that make up the First Purification it says:

"The correct vision of mentality and materiality, which, after defining
mentality-materiality by these various methods, has been established
on the plane of non-confusion by overcoming the perception of a being,
is what should be understood as purification of view. Other terms for it
are 'defining of mentality-materiality' and 'delimitation of formations'."

This shows that one must define in this way to accomplish this level. I think these are absent from Mahasi and Goenka.

Now I will give quotes about the second purification. Are the contemplations of the secon purification present in Mahasi or Goenka?

"To begin with, he considers thus: 'Firstly this mentality-materiality
is not causeless, because if that were so, it would follow that [having no
causes to differentiate it,] it would be identical everywhere always and
for all. It has no Overlord, etc., because of the non-existence of any
Overlord, etc. (Ch. XVI, §85), over and above mentality-materiality. And
because, if people then argue that mentality-materiality itself is its Overlord,
etc., then it follows that their mentality-materiality, which they call
the Overlord, etc., would itself be causeless. Consequently there must be
a cause and a condition for it. What are they?'.

4. Having thus directed his attention to mentality-materiality's cause
and condition, he first discerns the cause and condition for the material
body in this way: 'When this body is born it is not born inside a blue, red
or white lotus or water-lily, etc., or inside a store of jewels or pearls,
etc.; on the contrary, like a worm in rotting fish"


The ways given are in the text.

One does it by way of contemplating that It's Occurance is Always Due to Conditions. This way:

After discerning the material body's conditions in this way, he again
discerns the mental body in the way beginning: 'Due to eye and to
visible object eye-consciousness arises' (S.ii,72; M.i,lll).
When he has thus seen that the occurrence of mentality-materiality
is due to conditions...


Another does it another specific way.

"Another, when he has seen that the formations called mentalitymateriality
arrive at ageing and that those that have aged dissolve, discerns
mentality-materiality's conditions by means of dependent origination
in reverse order in this way: 'This is called the ageing-and-death of
formations"


And there are set specific ways mentioned to review it. Again where are these found in Mahasi.

The lists go on and on for the third purification, fourth, etc.

I will skip those so as not to overload people with the reading at this time.

Another quote:

"'After he has perfected the two purifications that are
the "roots", then he can develop the five purifications that are the "trunk" '
(Ch. XIV, §32). And at this point the detailed exposition of the system
for developing understanding in the proper way as it has been handed
down is completed. So the question 'How should it be developed?' (Ch.
XIV, §32) is now answered."


This shows how wisdom is developed traditionally. These things are absent in modern systems. By way of this, one can conclude that they are not in line with how wisdom is developed according to ancient Theravada tradition.

Have a nice night.

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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