The "purity" of the spoken word

[ihrjordan]

I recall reading in a history book that during the Buddha's time writing was used primarily for financial transactions and for keeping government records and even existed as far back as 1,500 B.C.E via Mohenjo Daro civilization (though some estimates push it even further) and that it was considered an "impure" method of maintaining religious doctrine, this view was held especially by the Ariyan/Brahmin peoples who weren't known to have a system of writing as a nomadic society. Let us not forget that even the word "Upanishad" more or less means "that which is passed down in a session". So my question then is if writing definitely existed during the Buddha's time, why wouldn't he have extolled the monks to preserve the teachings in writing AND oral tradition? Could there perhaps be something to the claim that memorization and oral tradition is a purer method of retention and that he might have been ok with them never being written down? from what I've seen it's rarely discussed

[JamesTheGiant]

I heard the main reason they didn't write things down for recording important things, was because their materials rotted away within a few years - banana leaves were the best they had for paper at that time and that area.
Dunno why they didn't use clay tablets or carved wood, like some ancient civilisations, so there must be more to the explanation.

[SarathW]

Memorising is a major factor in arriving at final truth.



“When he has investigated him and has seen that he is purified from states based on delusion, then he places faith in him; filled with faith he visits him and pays respect to him; having paid respect to him, he gives ear; when he gives ear, he hears the Dhamma; having heard the Dhamma, he memorises it and examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorised; when he examines their meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those teachings; when he has gained a reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up; when zeal has sprung up, he applies his will; having applied his will, he scrutinises; having scrutinised, he strives; resolutely striving, he realises with the body the supreme truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom. In this way, Bhāradvāja, there is the discovery of truth; in this way one discovers truth; in this way we describe the discovery of truth. But as yet there is no final arrival at truth.”

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn95" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Contrary to popular belief, the Oral tradition is more reliable than the written tradition.

The Chinese whispers analogy is a serial process, A tells B who tells C who tells ... Z is the written tradition.

The oral tradition is A tells B-Z in the presence of B-Z, then B telsl a-z in the presence of at least one or two remaining from C-Z long after A is dead.

[The Thinker]

We are so lucky in this age, that the internet makes available the oral talks given by the experienced monks, the written word lacks character and persona of the individual, seeing and listening is a blessing, more senses are used by the listener to clarify meaning, this is most beneficial.

[ihrjordan]

Contrary to popular belief, the Oral tradition is more reliable than the written tradition.

The Chinese whispers analogy is a serial process, A tells B who tells C who tells ... Z is the written tradition.

The oral tradition is A tells B-Z in the presence of B-Z, then B telsl a-z in the presence of at least one or two remaining from C-Z long after A is dead.

Yes but is there any reason why the Buddha didn't tell the monks to preserve the teachings in writing as well as memorizing them? Surely having both available as a means of preservation was preferable to just one or the other? I think I remember the Buddha telling his disciples to never teach in the language of the Brahmins -that being Sanskrit of course- but did he ever address the written word directly? Perhaps he held a similar conception of writing as that of Socrates who came after him.

He who thinks, then, that he has left behind him any art in writing, and he who receives it in the belief that anything in writing will be clear and certain, would be an utterly simple person, and in truth ignorant of the prophecy of Ammon, if he thinks written words are of any use except to remind him who knows the matter about which they are written.

he will not, when in earnest, write them in ink, sowing them through a pen with words which cannot defend themselves by argument and cannot teach the truth effectually.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

If the Buddha was Omniscient, and had whatever knowledge he wished to have about the future, and therefore could have foreseen the benefit of writing the suttas on palm leaves or carving them in stone, don't you think he would have instructed his monks to do it?

[SarathW]

The way I understand what ever written is for someone else.
Whatever memorise is for your own benefit and practice.

Whatever memorise can not be destroyed by fire or water etc.
It is easy to carry. Nobody can rob it.
Easy to retrieve information.
It is the best way to preserve.

I think rely on digital techniques to preserve information is very unreliable. I prefer books.

[ihrjordan]

If the Buddha was Omniscient, and had whatever knowledge he wished to have about the future, and therefore could have foreseen the benefit of writing the suttas on palm leaves or carving them in stone, don't you think he would have instructed his monks to do it?

This is exactly my point so perhaps the aspects of hearing and memorization have gone largely neglected in our modern age of instant information

[ihrjordan]

The way I understand what ever written is for someone else.
Whatever memorise is for your own benefit and practice.

Whatever memorise can not be destroyed by fire or water etc.
It is easy to carry. Nobody can rob it.
Easy to retrieve information.
It is the best way to preserve.

I think rely on digital techniques to preserve information is very unreliable. I prefer books.

I want to memorize the dhamma but sadly I don't know pali and memorized english suttas sound a little clunky

[ihrjordan]

After some reflection I've come to the conclusion that once something is memorized it more or less merges and "becomes one with the mind". Once it is one with the mind, no desire and seeking is required to retrieve the memorized piece. Craving for any physical object whatsoever (even a dhamma book) in present time and space is a craving for sense pleasure, even if it is extrememly subtle. Whereas a memorized piece isn't craved for but rather summoned into one's sphere of verbal fabrication; making it pure.

[SarathW]

Memorising is such a important thing.
I do not remember even I posted my first post and the content of that.
Thank you for bumping this thread.
Now I can read my own writings.
Wait.
I should memorise that phrase.

[Jones]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mingun_Sayadaw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Jones]

Maha-parinibbana sutta

61. Thereupon the Blessed One entered the hall of audience, and taking the seat prepared for him, he exhorted the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, O bhikkhus, I say to you that these teachings of which I have direct knowledge and which I have made known to you — these you should thoroughly learn, cultivate, develop, and frequently practice, that the life of purity may be established and may long endure, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men.

62. "And what, bhikkhus, are these teachings? They are the four foundations of mindfulness, the four right efforts, the four constituents of psychic power, the five faculties, the five powers, the seven factors of enlightenment, and the Noble Eightfold Path. These, bhikkhus, are the teachings of which I have direct knowledge, which I have made known to you, and which you should thoroughly learn, cultivate, develop, and frequently practice, that the life of purity may be established and may long endure, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also do you 'think' that wether somthing is written (the eye), or spoken (the ear) which are part of the six sense bases, they are both cognized by the mind base? In the Vibhanga (p535) it stated that in the fine material realm the eye base AND the ear base is apparent (along with mind and ideational base) respectively. And do you remember how the Blessed one explains how he awakened to the unsurpassed awakening on that full moon in may 2500 years ago?

With Metta.

[ihrjordan]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mingun_Sayadaw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank you for sharing this. It's inspiring to read about such recluses, truly dedicated to sustaining the Dhamma flame.

Also do you 'think' that wether somthing is written (the eye), or spoken (the ear) which are part of the six sense bases, they are both cognized by the mind base?

Well the mind base is the forerunner of all things so yes.

In the Vibhanga (p535) it stated that in the fine material realm the eye base AND the ear base is apparent (along with mind and ideational base) respectively.

I recall a talk in which Bhante Dhammananda spoke of this Deva realm and put comedic emphasis on the absense of the earth mouth; imagine a place where beings are forced to listen rather than talk.

And do you remember how the Blessed one explains how he awakened to the unsurpassed awakening on that full moon in may 2500 years ago?

(Testing my memory here) Something along the lines of: "Ignorance was banished and wisdom arose, darkness was banished and light arose as happens in one who remains heedful, ardent and resoloute"