Knowing body processes as basis for knowing mental processes

[Goofaholix]

Can we really say (as is implied by Bhikkhu Bodhi's statement I think) that without meditative practices in which awareness in the body is established first there cannot be understanding of mental processes?

If we lived in a vacuum then I guess what you are suggesting could be possible. However we don't live in a vacuum and mental processes are dependant on data collected through the six sense doors and five of those sense doors are body based. So one can't understand mental processes without understanding bodily processes either first or in tandem, the body is the first foundation of mindfulness for good reason.

[mikenz66]

Hi Phil,

It's hardly reasonable to quote from something you say you wrote down from Bhikhku Bodhi, with no reference or context, and expect a useful discussion over the choice of words.

Presumably this has something to do with the footnote on page 9 of this PDF of selections from the AN:
Aṅguttara Nikāya, Discourses of the Buddha, An Anthology Part I.
Selected and translated from the Pāli by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.urbandharma.org/pdf1/wh155An ... ikaya1.pdf

8. Mindfulness Directed to the Body
I. Even as one who encompasses with his mind the mighty ocean includes thereby all the rivulets
that run into the ocean; just so, O monks, whoever develops and cultivates mindfulness directed
to the body includes thereby all the wholesome states that partake of supreme knowledge. [11]

• Footnote [11]:
  “Mindfulness directed to the body” (kāyagatā-sati) comprises all fourteen exercises described under
  contemplation of the body in the Kāyagatā-sati Sutta (MN 119) and the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22,
  MN 10): mindfulness of breathing, attention to the postures, clear comprehension of activities, reflection
  on foulness (on the thirty-one parts of the body), analysis into the four elements, and the nine cemetery
  contemplations (on decaying corpses). The great stress laid on contemplation of the body derives from the
  fact that meditative comprehension of the impermanent, painful, and selfless nature of bodily processes
  forms the indispensable basis for a corresponding comprehension of mental processes; and it is only the
  comprehension of both that will lead to liberating insight and the noble path.

This is AN 1.575 in Bhikkhu Bodhi's new translation:

“Bhikkhus, even as one who encompasses with his mind the great ocean includes thereby all the streams that run into the ocean, just so, whoever develops and cultivates mindfulness directed to the body includes all wholesome qualities that pertain to true knowledge.”

• Footnote: In this sutta and those that follow, kāyagatāsati should surely be understood in the broad sense of the Kāyagatāsati Sutta (MN 119), as comprising all meditation exercises based on the body, rather than in the narrow sense of Vism 240, Ppn 8.44, which restricts it to contemplation of the thirty-two bodily parts.
  Mp: “Wholesome qualities that pertain to true knowledge (kusalā dhammā ye keci vijjābhāgiyā): There are eight kinds of true knowledge: insight knowledge, the mind-made body, and the six kinds of direct knowledge (see, e.g., 3:101, 6:2). The qualities associated with these eight are the things that pertain to true knowledge. Or, if one of the eight is taken to be true knowledge, the others are ‘qualities that pertain to true knowledge.’” At 2:31, samatha and vipassanā are said to be the two things that pertain to true knowledge.

Mike

[phil]

Hi Mike

I see your point. But since it was in one of my many notebooks I'm sorry I don't have an exact reference, it's really irrelevant that it's Bhikkhu Bodhi. I guess all this should've been in another section. Sorry about that. It might have seemed from the way I worded posts earlier in this thread that I was out to discredit Bhikkhu Bodhi but that wasn't my original intention. I do think the quote , whoever said it and wherever it comes from. is an interesting starter for discussion.

Phil

[mikenz66]

Hi Phil,

It is a useful discussion starter, and we have now seen a lot of suttas that support the idea. I guess it would be possible to quibble with the word "indispensable" in the footnote I quoted above, but I can't think of any suttas dealing in detail with insight into impermanence, suffering, and not-self that only talk about contemplation of mental processes.


Mike

[tiltbillings]

Knowing what "body processes" does not involve "mental" processes?"

[pegembara]

Hi all

In a notebook I came across this quotation from Bhikhu Bodhi to explain why there is such a great stress laid on contemplation of the body: "Because the meditative comprehension of the impermanent, painful and selfless nature of body processes forms the indispensable basis for a corresponding comprehension of mental processes."
This sounds sensible, but is there any specific teaching like this in the Canon?

Thanks

Phil

"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[phil]

Hi all

In a notebook I came across this quotation from Bhikhu Bodhi to explain why there is such a great stress laid on contemplation of the body: "Because the meditative comprehension of the impermanent, painful and selfless nature of body processes forms the indispensable basis for a corresponding comprehension of mental processes."
This sounds sensible, but is there any specific teaching like this in the Canon?

Thanks

Phil

"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Hi Pegembera, all.

Thanks, this is very clear to me, this I can understand as an example of bodily processes being understood first. But I have kind of lost track of why I originally quoted the passage and asked the question,and judging from the other suttas I am in over my head on this subject.

I sometimes post questions on the spur of the moment (especially when I am having my first caffeine rush of the day) and come to regret it, a kind of idle Dhamma babbling.

So I will drop it here, thanks for all your posts.

Phil